What makes this conversation stand out is how plainly Hunter talks about the parts most people would keep hidden. He calls addiction “never an excuse,” but insists it can be an explanation. He traces almost every bad decision he’s made back to fear. He talks about the accident that killed his mother and sister when he was three years old, the decade of relapse that followed his first stint in rehab, and the moment a total loss of privacy left him with what he calls a binary choice: get up and live, or find a way to die.

By the end of the conversation, Hunter has moved past the scandal. He talks about a paintbrush his wife Melissa bought him at a used furniture shop, about finding purpose in a single afternoon of painting, and about why being of service to other people secures his sobriety more than anything else.

This is a conversation about what happens after the worst thing you can imagine happens to you, and what you build with what’s left.

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Show Notes

[00:00] Meet Hunter: From Scandal to the Studio

• Josh introduces Hunter as someone whose entire digital life was leaked from a laptop one October, turning private photos, relapses, and unfinished thoughts into a story other people wrote for him.

• Seven years ago, at a point where Hunter says he could no longer trust his own mind, he picked up a paintbrush and started working in alcohol ink, acrylic, and Pointillism.

• Hunter now paints in Los Angeles and writes about his experience on Substack, correcting himself in public when his memory proves him wrong.

Key Insight: “That was the most beautiful introduction I’ve ever gotten.” - Hunter

[02:08] A Beautiful Childhood, Filled With Trauma

• When Hunter was about three, he and his older brother Beau were in a violent car accident with their mom and little sister. Rescue workers used the jaws of life to free them.

• Hunter’s mother and sister died in that accident. He and his brother spent a month or more in the hospital together afterward.

• His Aunt Valerie, Uncle Jimmy, and the rest of his family rushed in to rebuild their lives, and Hunter calls his dad “the best dad I know.”

• For years, Hunter didn’t let himself believe that early trauma played a role in what came next.

Key Insight: “I had an incredibly beautiful childhood filled with trauma.” - Hunter

[05:01] The First Drink and the Cycle of Shame

• Hunter remembers his first sip of alcohol at age eight, sneaking a champagne flute at a party and feeling like everything missing in him had suddenly been filled.

• His drinking progressed through high school and college, and he went on to graduate from Yale Law School.

• By his early thirties, Hunter knew his drinking wasn’t normal. He made himself promises: only drink on weekends, only drink beer, no Jack Daniels. He broke every one of them.

• Breaking those promises started a cycle of shame that became, in his words, the thing that locked him into relapse.

Key Insight: “When I would break that promise, I decided it was easier to hide that and lie about it than be honest with myself or anybody around me.” - Hunter

[07:42] Rehab, Relapse, and the Ten-Year Spiral

• On September 12, 2003, Hunter’s brother told him he needed to do something about his drinking. Hunter went to rehab and stayed sober for close to seven years.

• After his first relapse, Hunter entered a ten-year cycle that got progressively worse, moving through rehab, short stretches of sobriety, and binges.

• The spiral ended in a serious addiction to crack cocaine alongside daily heavy vodka drinking, which continued for about two years before Hunter got sober in June 2019.

• He’s careful with his language today. He calls himself “substance free and sober,” not “clean.”

Key Insight: “More than anything, though, what I learned is that I wasn’t alone.” - Hunter

[13:56] Radical Honesty Requires Radical Self-Love

• Hunter talks openly about the parts of his story most people keep private, including smoking crack and being in situations involving prostitutes.

• He believes addiction is never an excuse for behavior, but it can be an explanation, both to other people and to yourself.

• He credits an idea from Chase Hughes: real healing takes being “almost delusional in your self-forgiveness,” without giving up accountability or the work of making amends.

Key Insight: “Until you can truly love yourself, it is almost impossible to truly accept and receive love.” - Hunter

[15:43] Seen and Not Abandoned: How Love Rebuilt Him

• Hunter says his healing began when he let one person, his wife Melissa, see every part of him, and she didn’t run.

• Melissa helped him detox at home instead of going back to rehab. Hunter describes her as becoming his “jailer” for a period of time, a role he says was painful for her to take on.

• His family, especially his daughters and his dad, never closed the door on him, which is what let him find a moment of clarity and walk through it.

• He’s clear that unconditional love isn’t love without accountability. It still requires making amends.

Key Insight: “Unconditional love does not mean love without consequences. It does not mean love without accountability.” - Hunter

[21:39] Fear, the Leak, and the Greatest Gift He Ever Received

• Hunter says nearly every bad decision he’s made, sober or using, came from fear: fear of being found out, fear of underperforming, fear of not being lovable.

• In October, someone stole 20 years of his digital footprint and presented the most damaging images and words to the world without context, stripping away his privacy completely.

• That total loss of privacy left him with what he calls a binary choice: get up and live, or find a way to die. He says he knew he didn’t have another relapse left in him.

• Today, Hunter says he doesn’t fear anything or anyone, because there’s no secret left that hasn’t already been exposed.

Key Insight: “The thing that people believe was the most humiliating, and it was, and the most devastating, in many ways it was, and the most destructive, in many ways it was, was also the greatest gift that I ever received in my life.” - Hunter

[28:04] The Paintbrush, the Purpose, and Peak Path Health

• After detoxing at home, Melissa bought Hunter a used table, a roll of Yupo paper, alcohol inks, and acrylics from a furniture shop, and told him he needed to paint.

• Hunter says having his hands occupied for hours at a time gave him something the ritual of using had trained into him: focus, and a way to get out of his own head.

• He believes art only becomes art once it’s shared with another person, and that finding a small, “lowercase p” purpose in each day matters more than chasing one big Purpose.

• He’s now building Peak Path Health, a recovery organization focused on the continuity of care people need after the first 30 days of treatment, alongside his Substack writing.

Key Insight: “There’s nothing that secures my sobriety more wholly and completely than being in service to somebody else.” - Hunter

Key Quotes

“I had an incredibly beautiful childhood filled with trauma.” - Hunter

“When I would break that promise, I decided it was easier to hide that and lie about it than be honest with myself or anybody around me.” - Hunter

“Until you can truly love yourself, it is almost impossible to truly accept and receive love.” - Hunter

“The thing that people believe was the most humiliating, and it was, and the most devastating, in many ways it was, and the most destructive, in many ways it was, was also the greatest gift that I ever received in my life.” - Hunter

“It’s a practice until you share it.” - Hunter

Resources Mentioned

• Alcohol ink, acrylic, and Pointillism — the materials and techniques Hunter uses in his large-scale paintings

• Yupo paper — the material Melissa first bought him to start painting

• Peak Path Health (peakpathhealthfoundation.org) — the recovery organization Hunter is helping build, focused on continuity of care after the first 30 days of treatment

• HunterBiden.com/recovery — an anonymous space where people can share their own experience, strength, and hope with addiction

• Chase Hughes — referenced for the idea of being “almost delusional in your self-forgiveness,” and for the observation that “do not be afraid” is the most repeated phrase across Scripture

Where to Find Hunter

Where's Hunter?

Where the true thing gets said, in my own hand.

By Hunter Biden

• Peak Path Health: peakpathhealthfoundation.org

• HunterBiden.com/recovery

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Hunter for his extraordinary honesty and courage. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Closer Than It Looks

Hunter’s story played out in public, but the shape of it is familiar to a lot of us: broken promises, shame that keeps you hiding instead of asking for help, the day you finally decide to get up and live instead of just get through it. I knew my mornings were getting harder to show up for, and I was tired of pretending that was normal.

If that’s where you are, The Sober Creative Reset is built for exactly this moment. It’s a guided 30-day alcohol-free reset with one-on-one coaching from the first session, four sessions a month, plus daily support in between. The goal is simple: give yourself a real chance to feel like you again.

Start Your Reset

By the time she reached her late 30s and early 40s, that early fascination had turned into two DUIs, years of drinking vodka out of water bottles during real estate inspections, and a daily system so precise she could stay “sober” for the school bus pickup every single day. She went to treatment twice in 2016. The first stay didn’t hold. The second one did, and it changed the entire direction of her life.

In this conversation, Dana walks through what actually separated her two attempts. It wasn’t willpower, and it wasn’t a stronger program. It was the difference between trying to stop a behavior and committing to becoming a completely different person.

As she approaches her ten-year sobriety anniversary on September 1st, she shares what that shift required, what she had to grieve along the way, and why she stopped trying to fit her writing into one tidy niche.

Show Notes

[00:00] Welcome and Introduction

Josh introduces Dana Kay as a writer, connector, and nurturer who’s been alcohol-free for over nine years, and the two immediately find common ground.

• Dana has been alcohol-free for nearly a decade, with her ten-year mark landing on September 1st

• Josh and Dana discover they’ve both had a DUI, and neither of them remembers much of the night it happened

• The tone is set early: honest, unpolished, and willing to go straight into hard material

Key Insights: “I got the police report in the mail... and I was reading the police report going, that happened? I didn’t remember.” - Dana Kay

[02:11] Growing Up “Cute Little Dana”

Dana traces her drinking back to childhood, growing up the youngest of eight (two big brothers, five step-siblings) between two very different father figures after her parents’ divorce.

• She had a well-provided-for upbringing but didn’t recognize it until she started paying her own bills

• She followed “the expected track”: graduated high school at 17, college at 21, became an elementary teacher, then moved into real estate in 2006

• She names her own talent and ability to always get hired as a “double-edged sword” that fed her drinking later on

Key Insights: “You can over-rely on your achievements and your talents... and that definitely played into my alcohol use for sure.” - Dana Kay

[04:43] The Beanbag Story

Dana describes her first conscious memory of alcohol in detail: sneaking sips at her parents’ dinner parties around age five or six, and passing out on a beanbag while the adults laughed above her.

• Her parents didn’t send her to bed during parties; instead they gave her small jobs, like bringing guests drinks, which kept her in the room

• She picked up early that drinking was “the absolute cool thing,” because she saw adults enjoying it and wanted to feel what they felt

• Looking back as a mother herself, she’s had to reckon with recreating some of the same environments for her own kids without realizing it at the time

Key Insights: “Instead of worrying or being sad, they were laughing. And they thought it was really cute.” - Dana Kay

[09:22] College and the Double Life

At UC Davis, Dana joined a Christian youth group (originally because the boys were cute) and found faith on a retreat at 18. But she kept a second, separate version of herself for home.

• Her day-to-day life revolved around a sober Christian friend group, while trips back to her hometown meant drinking, flirting, and partying

• She describes the pull of that split identity as its own addiction: “The complete rush was, what can I get away with?”

• After friends celebrated that she’d “never party again,” she made a conscious decision in the car to keep that part of her life hidden from them going forward

Key Insights: “It was a complete rush, more than alcohol itself. The complete rush was, what can I get away with?” - Dana Kay

[15:00] The Rock Bottom Years

By her late 30s, working in real estate, Dana’s drinking became a fully hidden system built around her family’s schedule.

• She lied to her husband about needing to “drop off flyers” or run open houses so she could go drink, and he had no way to track her irregular real estate hours

• She drank vodka out of water bottles during home inspections for over a decade, including with an inspector she’d known for 15 years who never suspected a thing

• She built a daily rhythm: sober and present for morning drop-off, drinking through the day, then timing a nap so she’d appear sober again by the time her sons got off the bus

• One morning in late August, her organs seized and she couldn’t move out of bed; she still told her husband she “just had a tummy ache” before he left for work

Key Insights: “That energy of wanting to get away with it, and fooling everyone, lived more in me than the substance did.” - Dana Kay

[17:49] First Treatment vs. Second Treatment

Dana explains the moment that sent her to treatment the first time, the relapse that followed, and the deeper shift that made the second stay permanent.

• Her therapist stopped a session mid-conversation and said, “we can’t get any further until you’re honest about alcohol,” which Dana had been carefully avoiding

• That night she Googled “how do you know if you’re an alcoholic” and discovered she’d searched the exact same thing on Christmas Eve, in a blackout she had no memory of

• After four sober months following her first treatment, she relapsed on a trip to Europe with her son, telling herself a little drinking wouldn’t turn permanent

• The second time she got sober, a therapist helped her see the real difference: the first attempt focused on stopping a behavior, while the second required building an entirely new identity

Key Insights: “If you’re going to be successful at this, you have to have an entirely new identity.” - Dana Kay

[34:29] Building the New Identity

Dana describes the practical, unglamorous work of rebuilding her life around the new identity, not just the absence of alcohol.

• She had to consciously change her driving routes because her car would automatically head toward familiar bars

• She built accountability into her schedule by not leaving gaps between appointments, and leaned on close friends and her husband to hold her to it

• She started a morning journaling practice, writing down small changes so she could reread her own words later, on the days she felt weak

• She noticed real physical changes, like hitting new personal records at the gym, and had to stop denying that sobriety was the reason

Key Insights: “No, Dana, you know that this is going to lead to that. This feels so much better. You wrote it right here.” - Dana Kay

[38:07] Noticing, Grief, and the Sunrise

Dana connects her recovery to a growing capacity to actually notice her life, and the grief that came with realizing how much she’d missed.

• She began noticing details on ordinary drives, like trees, mountains, an eagle, or a deer, that she says she never used to see

• She describes a memory of watching a sunrise in Mexico while drinking, and realizing only in hindsight that it was really “a place to go hide and drink”

• She’s come to believe that grieving what was missed isn’t just okay, it’s a necessary part of the process

• She also became more honest in her business relationships, without the manipulation she now recognizes she’d been running for years

Key Insights: “Not only is it okay to grieve that, it’s important to grieve that.” - Dana Kay

[41:11] Family Roots, What She Writes Now, and Where to Find Her

Dana closes by connecting her story to her family’s long history with alcoholism, and explains what she writes about today.

• Her grandparents were pillars of the local AA and Al-Anon community, and she grew up helping serve pie and coffee at their meetings, even while her own aunt struggled with alcoholism without full openness from the family

• After years of trying to force her writing into one niche, she’s landed on a simple framework: Connection, Acceptance, and Noticing (C-A-N)

• She writes about sobriety, motherhood of older kids, being single in your 50s, and starting over later in life, all under what she calls the umbrella of love

• She’s active on Substack and Instagram as Dana Kay, offers one-on-one calls, and leads gratitude and connection sessions at retreats she’s invited to

Key Insights: “There is no saying no to whatever your dreams are, whatever you want to do with your life. There’s just no no.” - Dana Kay

Key Quotes

“The complete rush was, what can I get away with?” - Dana Kay

“If you’re going to be successful at this, you have to have an entirely new identity.” - Dana Kay

“My identity took me into relapse because I still wanted to be the pretty, fun, cool girl, mom, friend, daughter.” - Dana Kay

“Not only is it okay to grieve that, it’s important to grieve that.” - Dana Kay

“There is no saying no to whatever your dreams are, whatever you want to do with your life. There’s just no no.” - Dana Kay

Resources Mentioned

• Gabor Maté’s approach to addiction — Dana references his idea that instead of asking “where’s the addiction,” you ask “where’s the pain”

• AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) and Al-Anon — the community Dana’s grandparents helped lead, which shaped her early exposure to recovery

• Dana’s C-A-N framework — Connection, Acceptance, and Noticing, the three principles she now writes and coaches around

Where to Find Dana Kay

Dana Kay

💜all about every kind of love thing. ✨ Connection is the joy. Acceptance is the work. Noticing is the fuel ♾️ 🍯 🕊️

• Instagram: Dana Kay

• 1:1 Calls: Dana offers personal calls for anyone working through what she writes about, from sobriety questions to relationship decisions

• Retreats and Workshops: She’s invited to lead gratitude circles, forest walks, and connection sessions at corporate and soulful retreat spaces

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Dana Kay for her extraordinary honesty and wisdom. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Your Next Step

Dana’s second treatment worked because she stopped trying to just stop drinking and rebuilt an entirely new identity instead. The first time ran on willpower, and it wore out by June. The second time gave her whole system room to actually recover, and that’s what held.

The Sober Creative Reset is built around that same shift. It’s a guided 30-day alcohol-free reset, with one-on-one coaching from your first session, not a program you follow alone. The fog and depletion so many high performers carry aren’t a discipline problem. They come from recovery that never fully completes. No labels, no moralizing, no lifetime sobriety vow, just real support while your energy, clarity, and follow-through come back online.

Start Your Reset

Jomo’s origin story starts with Jason hitting a wall. He liked to drink and party until, as Jomo put it, “the bottom of the barrel was in sight.” Meditation pulled him out of it, and it worked so well that Jason wanted to teach it to others. The problem was that meditation looked strange and unapproachable to most beginners. So Jason built a version anyone could try, and gave it a monkey mascot to make the whole thing feel less intimidating and more human.

What Jomo shared in this conversation goes far beyond breathing techniques. He talked about why the mind is the most important tool we have, why meditation is less about being calm and more about clearing the noise so calm can show up, and why he believes people who choose sobriety are some of the bravest people alive. If you have ever avoided sitting with your own thoughts, this one is for you.

[00:50] Meet Jomo, the Meditation-Teaching Monkey

• Jomo is the mascot and co-teacher behind Monkey Mind Meditation, run alongside his human, Jason.

• The name plays on “monkey mind,” a term meditation teachers use for the constant jostling of thoughts and feelings we all deal with.

• Jomo’s approach centers on making meditation feel ordinary instead of mystical or hard to access.

Key Insight:

“Hello, it’s lovely to be here.”
— Jomo

[03:05] From Rock Bottom to Monkey Mind: How the Journey Began

• Jason struggled with drinking and partying before finding meditation as a way out.

• Learning to meditate changed his life enough that he wanted to teach it to others.

• Early students were put off because meditation online looked strange — people in odd positions, dramatic backdrops, nothing relatable.

• Jason built a simpler, friendlier version of meditation and gave it a monkey mascot to make it approachable.

Key Insight:

“He liked to drink and he liked to party. And he realized that the bottom of the barrel was in sight.”
— Jomo

[05:55] Two Million Meditators: Growing an Audience on TikTok

• The show started rough. Early viewers were confused and sometimes rude about what they were watching.

• Growth was slow at first, then it exploded into hundreds of new viewers every week.

• They’ve now done over 600 live sessions and reached more than 2 million people through TikTok.

• New viewers tend to follow the same pattern: confusion, then curiosity, then commitment.

Key Insight:

“When they first come on, they think to themselves, what is this? And then they put the little acronym, WTF, which is a bit rude. But we stick with it. And then a few minutes later, they may say, oh, this is actually quite calming. And then a few minutes later, they’ll say, this is actually working. And then a few minutes later after that, they say, when are you next on? And then they’re a fan.”
— Jomo

[09:05] Why Your Mind Is the Most Important Tool You Own

• Jomo argues the mind shapes the quality of everything else in life, including how we experience reality itself.

• He points out that nobody gets a manual for how their brain works.

• He describes meditation as a kind of daily software upgrade for the brain.

• He calls the practice “a force field for good mental health” that needs to be recharged regularly, since life keeps throwing things at us.

Key Insight:

“I call it a force field for good mental health. Every time we meditate, we recharge that force field.”
— Jomo

[11:10] Sitting With the Monsters: Meditation and Sobriety

• Jomo believes people on a sober journey are some of the bravest people around.

• He connects addictive behavior to an unwillingness or inability to face what’s going on inside our own heads.

• Meditation, in his view, is a way to sit with the parts of ourselves we normally avoid or numb.

• He argues meditation doesn’t create calm directly. It removes noise, and calm follows from that.

Key Insight:

“Meditation helps us look inside. And sit with the monsters. And then when you sit with the monsters, you realize that the monsters just want to be heard. And when the monsters are heard, they go away.”
— Jomo

[13:32] Think Away: Making Meditation Approachable for Everyone

• Jomo teaches people that trying to stop thinking is impossible, and fighting that fact just creates frustration.

• Instead of suppressing thoughts, his method is to notice them and gently return to the breath or a mantra.

• He reframes a common complaint — “I can’t meditate because my mind is too busy” — as the exact reason meditation is needed.

• The format is deliberately ritualized (three deep breaths to start, a wriggle and stretch to close), which he says works especially well for their autistic community.

Key Insight:

“We teach people that you can’t stop thinking. That’s impossible. It’s like saying, don’t think of a pink elephant. And the first thing you do is you think of a pink elephant. So what we say is, think away. That’s okay. We’re not going to thought shame you here.”
— Jomo

[16:56] A Live Guided Meditation With Jomo

• Jomo led a short mindfulness meditation live on the show, starting with three deep breaths.

• The meditation focused on noticing thoughts without following them, comparing them to leaves floating past on a river.

• He guided listeners toward the idea that we are the awareness watching our thoughts, not the thoughts themselves.

• Several listeners in the chat reported feeling calmer immediately afterward.

Key Insight:

“And begin to sense that this breath is not something you’re doing, but something that’s happening to you.”
— Jomo

[26:03] Beyond TikTok: Variety, Reactions, and Where to Find Jomo Next

• TikTok’s algorithm reportedly struggles with their content because viewers stop interacting while meditating.

• Jomo shared a story about teaching meditation to someone with road rage, who learned to notice his anger instead of being swept up in it.

• Their live sessions mix different formats: mindfulness meditations, Zen stories, visualization journeys (Peru, Morocco, even an imagined “Land of Cake”), and a loving kindness meditation to close things out.

• They go live on TikTok Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, and have recently started YouTube lives on Sundays at 9pm, with all past sessions archived on YouTube.

Key Insight:

“We start with a mindfulness-based meditation, then quite often we’ll have a little bit of a Zen story, and then after that we have a visualization meditation, so we go to ancient Peru, Morocco, or the Land of Cake we did the other day. And then we finally give people a taste of a loving kindness meditation at the end so that they go away feeling full of good vibes.”
— Jomo

Key Quotes

“When you sit with the monsters, you realize that the monsters just want to be heard. And when the monsters are heard, they go away.”
— Jomo

“It doesn’t make you calmer. It just takes away the noise. Calm follows.”
— Jomo

“And people say, I can’t meditate because my mind is too busy. To which we say, that’s like saying, I can’t go to the gym because I’m too unfit.”
— Jomo

“There’s nothing to achieve here. Nothing to get right. Just a soft arriving into this moment.”
— Jomo

“You’re not the passing thought. You’re the awareness that sees it. You’re not the changing story. You’re the space in which it appears.”
— Jomo

Resources Mentioned

• Monkey Mind Meditation — Jomo and Jason’s meditation practice, live on TikTok and YouTube

• Transcendental Meditation — the practice mentioned as Josh’s own current meditation approach

• Vedic meditation — the tradition Jason teaches, described as closely related to Transcendental Meditation

Where to Find Jomo

The Monkeymind Meditation Club

We're your cheeky, joyous and calming corner of the internet where ancient wisdom meets playful, mindful moments and a lovely gang of friends going on an adventure together.

• TikTok: Live sessions Monday, Wednesday, and Friday

• YouTube: Live sessions Sunday at 9pm, with all past recordings archived

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Jomo for his humor, warmth, and unexpected wisdom on what it actually takes to sit still. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

A Natural Bridge

Jomo’s whole philosophy comes down to one idea: meditation doesn’t hand you calm directly, it clears the noise, and calm shows up on its own once the noise is gone. That’s the same principle behind alcohol and creativity. Alcohol is often the tool people reach for to avoid sitting with what’s actually happening in their heads. Removing it doesn’t hand you clarity right away either. It clears space, and clarity tends to follow from there.

If this episode stirred something for you and you're ready to do that work with support instead of alone, I coach a small number of people 1:1 through exactly this process. Send me a message at and let's talk about what that could look like for you.

What makes Jeff’s story worth sitting with is what he found on the other side. He didn’t just give up alcohol. He learned he’s deeply introverted, sensitive to noise and to the energy of a crowded room, and far less interested in big social gatherings than he ever realized while drinking. He also traded songwriting as an emotional release valve for something different: chant music built on ancient mantras, made to help people feel calm and present rather than to process pain.

In this conversation, Jeff talks about growing up in a drinking culture so strong it shaped an entire state’s identity, why his own drinking nearly disappeared the moment he lived somewhere else, and how a stomach problem sealed a decision his body had already started making on its own. He also shares a theory about sad music that’s worth thinking about, whether you drink or not.

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[1:36] Meet Jeff Harrington: Musician, Nine Years Removed From a Left-Brain Career

• Jeff is a singer, songwriter, producer, and bass player who’s been gigging for close to 40 years, much of it in the blues scene.

• Nine years ago he left his career as a medical physicist to focus on music, even though it’s never been his main income.

• He’s five years sober and has pulled back from playing out live, a shift he traces directly to sobriety.

Key Insight: “We’re supposed to do what we’re really terrified of, aren’t we?”

[3:03] Growing Up in Wisconsin’s Drinking Culture

• Jeff grew up in Milwaukee, which he says ranks nationally for excessive drinking, DUIs per capita, and bars per capita.

• College at Madison took that culture to another level. He describes drinking at least 12 beers a night as normal for everyone around him.

• He used alcohol to manage deep shyness and social anxiety, comparing it to an athlete numbing an injury just to get through the game.

Key Insight: “I think I was literally, my growth was stunted for at least five or 10 years looking back.”

[7:07] The Cleveland Contrast

• When Jeff moved to Cleveland for his first job, he expected a similar drinking culture to Wisconsin. Instead, he found people drank far less, and so did he.

• Looking back, this showed him how much of his drinking had been shaped by the environment around him, not by who he actually was.

• When he moved back to Wisconsin, he eventually fell back into the same heavy drinking patterns.

Key Insight: “I didn’t drink that much when I was in Cleveland. So looking back, I see that that’s who I really was.”

[13:48] Discovering He’s an Introvert

• After quitting drinking, Jeff realized he’s extremely introverted and sensitive to noise and to the energy of the people around him.

• He’s meditated for about 15 years, which he thinks has made him more attuned to these subtler energies.

• His social life shifted from crowds to small, comfortable gatherings that don’t leave him exhausted the next day.

Key Insight: “I’m not somebody who’s going to want to go to a party at this point or any place that’s loud and crowded.”

[15:54] A Stomach Issue Sealed What Had Already Begun

• About 10 years ago, Jeff and his then-girlfriend already cut back on drinking a lot as they got more into health.

• About five years ago, a stomach issue made alcohol physically intolerable, arriving right as he was already drinking less.

• Today he has maybe three or four drinks a year, and calls it fully intentional rather than something he misses.

Key Insight: “If my stomach magically healed, I wouldn’t be drinking at all. I don’t like it in my life anymore.”

[17:09] From Songwriting as Therapy to Chant Music as Calm

• In his 20s and 30s, Jeff used songwriting as one of his only tools for processing intense emotion, since he felt culture raised men to stay disconnected from their feelings.

• Today he writes mostly chant music on his Substack, Inside Sky Chant, built around ancient mantras rather than English lyrics.

• The purpose of his music has shifted from emotional catharsis to something more utilitarian: helping listeners feel calm and present.

Key Insight: “The ultimate goal would be it’s music that would be used to help people just be more calm and maybe present.”

[22:50] A New Earth: Spiritual Growth and Sobriety Growing Together

• About 15 years ago, Jeff read Eckhart Tolle’s A New Earth, which he says completely changed his life after years of searching without finding a way in.

• That book led him toward chant music, sound baths, and a spiritual practice he sees as deeply tied to his relationship with alcohol.

• He’s careful to say this isn’t about judging people who drink. For him personally, alcohol just no longer serves what he’s trying to build.

Key Insight: “I think the spiritual growth and the alcohol are very interconnected.”

[28:23] The Hangover, the Brain, and a Theory About Sad Music

• Jeff and Josh discuss how alcohol triggers inflammation in the body, which is part of what a hangover actually is.

• They talk through how alcohol can worsen depression and how the brain’s negativity bias, combined with modern stressors like social media, feeds a cycle of using alcohol to regulate the nervous system.

• Jeff shares a personal theory that he became addicted to sad music the same way people get dependent on alcohol, reaching for it out of habit rather than need.

Key Insight: “I think if people are listening to sad music every day, I really would suggest trying to step back and take a look at that.”

Key Quotes

“I think that’s like a perfect analog to someone who’s shy and they’re drinking.” - Jeff Harrington

“I was someone who didn’t even really want to drink that much. I was probably very influenced by the culture around me.” - Jeff Harrington

“I found out so clearly that I’m extremely introverted and sensitive to all the noise.” - Jeff Harrington

“If my stomach magically healed, I wouldn’t be drinking at all. I don’t like it in my life anymore.” - Jeff Harrington

“I really feel more and more, I feel like people really underestimate how powerful music is.” - Jeff Harrington

Resources Mentioned

• A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle

• Release Your Song (Jeff’s Substack on music and creativity)

• Inside Sky Chant (Jeff’s Substack for his chant music)

• Handpan (the instrument Jeff and Josh discuss in relation to nervous system regulation)

• Sound baths (a guided meditation practice using instruments like handpans)

Where to Find Jeff

Release Your Song

Everything about writing and releasing songs.

By Jeff “H” Harrington

Inside Sky

A Song for Your Mystical Dance Party

It’s midnight under the light of a full moon. You’re walking through a mystical forest. A bear roars in the distance, and you’re momentarily startled. The air feels electrically charged…

Read more

9 months ago · 52 likes · 33 comments · Jeff Harrington/InsideSkyChant

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to Jeff for his openness and generosity in sharing his story. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

What This Conversation Points To

Jeff and Josh spent a good chunk of this episode on something worth pulling out on its own: the cycle of reaching for alcohol the moment an uncomfortable feeling shows up, because it soothes that feeling within minutes. Jeff broke that cycle on his own timeline, over years, without a program or a guide walking alongside him.

That’s exactly where 1:1 coaching comes in. If you’re recognizing that same cycle in your own life and you’re ready to shorten the timeline, let’s talk. No pitch, no commitment. Just a conversation about where you’re at and what might be possible.

Schedule a Free Call

For 26 years, drinking looked completely normal. Nights out with his brothers turned into nearly 20 years of sharing wine on the couch with his wife. Nothing about his life looked broken. He had a steady IT career, a mortgage, and a stable home. At 45, he just noticed something simple: it was getting in his way now.

That one observation, made on a flight home from Barcelona in January 2018, led him to commit to 100 alcohol-free days. He hasn’t had a drink since. Within weeks, he stumbled onto a coaching course and knew almost instantly it was where he belonged. Nearly nine years later, at 54, Gary runs his own practice, the Life Design Collective, helping people in midlife ask the same question he once asked himself: is this it, or is there something else?

[03:06] Growing Up Different in Rural Ireland

• Gary was born and raised in rural Ireland and has used a wheelchair full-time since age 13.

• He didn’t have his first drink until 19, well past the age most of his peers started.

• Drinking made him feel like part of the group in a way he hadn’t before, since he grew up looking different from everyone around him.

Key Insight: “It just made me feel like everybody else.”

[07:04] The Wake-Up Call at 45

• His drinking shifted over time: nights out with his brothers in his 20s, then almost 20 years of sharing wine with his wife on the couch.

• Nothing about his life looked dramatic. He had a steady job, paid his bills, and everything seemed fine on the surface.

• At 45, he simply noticed alcohol was in his way and decided to see what life looked like without it.

Key Insight: “It’s getting in my way now.”

[07:46] From IT Career to Full-Time Coach

• On a flight home from Barcelona in January 2018, Gary committed to 100 alcohol-free days. He never had another drink after that.

• Within about two months, he found a coaching course and knew right away it was what he wanted to do.

• He ran two full workloads at once (coaching and his IT job) for years before finally leaving tech in 2023 to coach full-time.

Key Insight: “I didn’t actually go, okay, I’m quitting my job and I’m going to sell a house and move to Bali.”

[10:57] The Pattern Behind Change That Sticks

• Most people start by naming what they don’t want: hangovers, health problems, tension at work or at home.

• Once that clears, the real work begins, which is figuring out what you’re actually moving toward.

• Change rarely works on the first try. Every attempt adds information, and the streaks get longer as people learn instead of judging themselves for slipping.

Key Insight: “It doesn’t ever really work the first time.”

[13:04] Curiosity Over Judgment

• Gary calls curiosity, instead of self-judgment, the biggest shift he sees in people who make change last.

• Instead of asking why they failed, the useful question becomes what they could try differently next time.

• This mindset reaches far beyond drinking. It’s the difference between staying stuck in a cycle and actually moving forward.

Key Insight: “If you can treat it with curiosity and not judgment, that’s the real game changer.”

[17:00] Creativity, Clarity, and Finding Substack

• Gary spent almost 30 years in software, which he describes as genuinely creative work, even though it was never quite the right fit for him.

• About six weeks into sobriety, he experienced a level of energy and clarity he’d never felt before.

• That clarity opened the door to writing. He’s been on Substack for close to two years and is nearing one full year of his weekly newsletter, Second Act Sunday.

Key Insight: “Creativity almost by default jumps in.”

[21:02] What Happens When the Numbing Stops

• Removing alcohol doesn’t remove hard feelings. It just means you feel all of them, not only the ones you’d pick.

• Gary resisted gratitude journaling at first. “Thank you very much, I’ll pass,” he says of being told to write down three things he was grateful for.

• The practice ended up helping him see what he already had and who he already was, built by parents who raised him to believe he could do anything.

Key Insight: “It did allow me to kind of see what I have and see who I am.”

[29:19] Building a Second Act After 40

• Gary pushes back on the idea that life needs to be fully figured out by 40, and that any change after that is too hard or too late.

• His program, the Second Act Blueprint, is a seven-week experience helping people mostly between 40 and 60 design what comes next. The sixth cohort starts next Tuesday, with two spots still open.

• He didn’t blow up his life to make his own change. He changed slowly, over eight years, while keeping his job, his house, and his marriage intact. He’s now compiling a year of his newsletter with an eye toward turning it into a book.

Key Insight: “It took me, really, eight years of slow change.”

Key Quotes

“It just made me feel like everybody else.” — Gary Allen

“It’s getting in my way now.” — Gary Allen

“If you can treat it with curiosity and not judgment, that’s the real game changer.” — Gary Allen

“I didn’t actually go, okay, I’m quitting my job and I’m going to sell a house and move to Bali.” — Gary Allen

“It took me, really, eight years of slow change.” — Gary Allen

Resources Mentioned

• Life Design Collective — Gary’s own coaching practice, built around midlife redesign

• The Second Act Blueprint — Gary’s seven-week program helping people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s design what comes next (Next Cohort Starting on Tuesday July 21)

• Second Act Sunday — Gary’s weekly Substack newsletter, closing in on its first full year

• Richard Rohr and Arthur C. Brooks — authors Gary reads on the idea of a second act in midlife

Where to Find Gary

Gary Allen

I gave up alcohol at 45, I trained as a coach at 46, and I left corporate life for good at age 50. Now I coach people to change their relationship with alcohol and to make profound and meaningful change in mid-life. I write about all of that here.

Email: hello@garyallen.ie

Website: https://garyallen.ie/

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Gary Allen for his openness and wisdom. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Building Your Own Second Act

Gary’s story keeps coming back to one idea: change that lasts doesn’t come from a dramatic overhaul. It comes from removing the thing that’s been quietly draining your energy and clarity, then giving yourself time to rebuild from there.

That’s the same work at the center of The Sober Creative Method™, my 90-day, 1:1 coaching experience for people who want to remove alcohol as the barrier to their full creative capacity. No labels, no rock bottom required, just a structured path back to the energy and clarity that’s already yours.

If this episode resonated, send me a message and tell me where you’re at. I read every one.

In this conversation, Bob sits down to talk about what it actually took to break that cycle. He walks through the rules he tried and failed to follow, the Monday-morning mood he lived in for years, and the night he finally collapsed into his wife’s arms and said he had to stop. He also talks about a health scare with his son that reframed everything, and about a discovery he made once alcohol was out of the picture: a version of creativity he’d spent his whole life insisting he didn’t have.

What makes this one land isn’t just the honesty. It’s the specificity. Bob doesn’t talk about sobriety in abstractions. He talks about counting bottles in a fridge at 17, a mood scale that ran from a two on Monday to a nine on Friday, and writing his first song at 55, in a single day, about a drive with his mother.

If you’ve wondered what’s actually on the other side of quitting, this conversation gives you a real answer.

Subscribe now

Show Notes

[02:45] The First Drink and Decades of “Bobby Good Times”

• Bob’s first drink was a stolen Labatt Blue from his dad’s fridge at 17. His mom counted 23 missing bottles because he was acting strange.

• The taste was awful, but the feeling hooked him. It became, in his words, the answer to being the person he wanted to be.

• From 17 to 52, drinking anchored his life. Friday and Saturday nights were automatic, and he was often the one pushing for a Thursday or Sunday too.

• He could count on one hand how many weekends he took off in 35 years.

Key Insights: “It was actually really gross, but I loved the way it made me feel. It just seemed like the answer to being the person that I wanted to be.”

[09:38] When It Stopped Being Fun

• Watching his own sons go through hangovers, Bob now recognizes the anxiety he felt in his 20s and 30s but never had words for. Nobody talked about anxiety in the 80s.

• The real darkness set in during the five years before he quit, at 52.

• Drinking that once made him feel social and connected started making him feel isolated. He was hiding it and lying more.

• COVID sped everything up. The backyard parties were fun in the moment, but when life went back to normal, the drinking never slowed back down.

Key Insights: “It just felt like this thing that used to make me more social and more fun, and make me feel like a part of a group, was increasingly isolating.”

[12:13] The Rules That Never Worked

• Bob negotiated with himself constantly: no beers over 5%, no mixing beer and wine, no drinking on Sunday, no drinking before 4pm.

• Every rule bought him about two weeks before it collapsed.

• He kept waking up next to his wife, unable to remember the night before, promising things would change.

• Eventually he realized the rules were never going to hold, because he was powerless the moment he took the first drink.

Key Insights: “I had tried everything, and the only thing left was: I’ve got to stop. I’m powerless as soon as I have one drink.”

[14:02] Living the Monday-to-Friday Mood Cycle

• For two to three years before quitting, Bob’s whole life ran on a weekly mood cycle.

• Monday mornings he’d cancel meetings and take long walks alone, timed so his family wouldn’t see him.

• By Thursday he’d start to feel human again. By Friday he was ready to go out and do it all over.

• Looking back, he realized that cycle wasn’t rest and recovery. It was survival on repeat.

Key Insights: “Monday I’m a two. Wednesday I’m still pretty low, I’m a five. But by Thursday I’m a seven, and Friday morning I’m a nine.”

[17:19] Two Wake-Up Calls: Quitting and a Health Scare

• Bob quit on the Monday after Easter Sunday in 2022, following a messy family dinner the night before.

• He came home from a walk, collapsed into his wife’s arms, and said he had to stop. That became day one.

• Less than a year into sobriety, a second wake-up call hit: his son collapsed at a restaurant, and doctors found a bacterial mass pressing on his brain. He was rushed into emergency surgery and fully recovered.

• Bob credits being a couple years sober for how he and his wife handled it. If he’d still been drinking, he says he doesn’t know what would have happened.

Key Insights: “Life just gets really simple, really fast. I just didn’t want to waste a single day.”

[21:53] Three Years to “This Is Actually Better”

• Bob describes his first year sober as white-knuckling through every first: his birthday, Christmas, New Year’s, a boys’ trip, a wedding.

• Year two, he started testing whether he could actually enjoy himself sober instead of just proving he could survive it.

• It took a third year before he believed the people who’d told him you could have fun without drinking.

• Losing his friends scared him most. His phone did stop ringing for some things, but the friendships that mattered stayed intact. He’s the only one in his friend group who’s sober.

Key Insights: “Everyone quits, whether you quit 10 minutes before you take your last breath or 10 years before you die, or 20, or 30. Everyone quits. I’m just the one that went first.”

[28:04] Writing His First Song at 55

• Bob spent his whole life telling himself he wasn’t a creative person, even while building a career around surrounding himself with creative people.

• Songwriting eluded him for years. He’d write a couple of lines, decide they were garbage, and quit before finishing a verse.

• A guest on his own podcast, singer-songwriter Peter Katz, mentioned a songwriting retreat. Bob went: Friday for writing, Saturday for recording, Sunday for listening back to a fully produced song.

• The song is about driving his mother to her new retirement home. He played it for his family, and they cried.

Key Insights: “Creativity is inside all of us. It’s just buried under self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear of judgment. And it’s there.”

Key Quotes

“I had tried everything, and the only thing left was: I’ve got to stop. I’m powerless as soon as I have one drink.” - Bob Mathers

“Monday I’m a two. Wednesday I’m still pretty low, I’m a five. But by Thursday I’m a seven, and Friday morning I’m a nine.” - Bob Mathers

“I’ve realized that eight was actually a six, because I found a 12 and a 13, and I think I found a 15 and a 16. Who’s to say there is a limit on this?” - Bob Mathers

“Everyone quits, whether you quit 10 minutes before you take your last breath or 10 years before you die, or 20, or 30. Everyone quits. I’m just the one that went first.” - Bob Mathers

“Creativity is inside all of us. It’s just buried under self-doubt and imposter syndrome and fear of judgment. And it’s there.” - Bob Mathers

Resources Mentioned

• The Growth Mixtape — Bob’s podcast, with new episodes every other Thursday

• The Restless Leader — Bob’s Substack, written for people who built a successful career and now feel restless

• Peter Katz — singer-songwriter and speaker from Toronto who hosts songwriting retreats

• Rob Zabo — the award-winning producer who produced Bob’s song, and an upcoming guest on The Growth Mixtape

Where to Find Bob

The Restless Leader

For restless leaders curious about what's next, after a successful career following everyone else's rules. I'm a speaker, coach and podcast host fumbling my way through it myself. One thing is for sure - there is no going back.

By Bob Mathers

• LinkedIn: search Bob Mathers

• Podcast: The Growth Mixtape, wherever you listen, new episodes every other Thursday

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to Bob Mathers for his honesty and generosity in sharing his story. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Your Next Step

Bob spent decades telling himself he wasn’t creative. It took removing alcohol, and a lot of honesty about what he was actually afraid of, to find out that wasn’t true. What he found waiting on the other side wasn’t a smaller life. It was a bigger one, with no ceiling he could find yet.

If any part of his story landed for you, that’s worth paying attention to. You don’t need a plan figured out right now. A quick conversation to feel seen and discuss where you are is a great start.

Schedule a Free Call

Ian built a sales career on entertaining clients at bars, casinos, and golf courses. He called alcohol his superpower, the thing that let him build relationships and close deals. From the outside, it worked. From the inside, it cost him his health, his judgment, and eventually his second marriage.

In 2017, Ian checked into a ten-day rehab program built around aversion therapy, pairing real alcohol with a drug that made him violently sick. He walked out on Halloween and was served divorce papers in his garage forty minutes later. Almost a decade on, he’s rebuilt his mornings, his body, and his relationships from the ground up. His biggest lesson isn’t about willpower. It’s about who you let into your circle.

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Show Notes

[00:00] Meet Ian Fee: Life of the Party, Turned Sobriety Advocate

• Ian is the author of Wild Ride to Sobriety, a memoir about what drove him to drink, what got him out, and what he found on the other side.

• He got sober in 2017 after building an entire identity, and career, around alcohol.

• His central argument: sobriety doesn’t take away who you are. It gives you better access to it.

Key Insight: “I caught how to drink very, very well.”

[01:41] Raised on Booze: A Childhood Built Around Drinking

• Ian’s first drink was at age one. His parents dipped his binky in wine and gave him sips of beer as a toddler.

• His parents were, in his words, “social alcoholics” and the life of the party. Daily drinking was never treated as a problem, it was just what everyone did.

• By grade school he could name every neighbor’s drink order and knew exactly when to refill a glass, a skill he says he still has today.

Key Insight: “Things are caught, not taught.”

[04:55] Building a Career (and an Identity) Around Alcohol

• Ian studied hotel management in San Diego and built his sales career on entertaining clients at bars, strip clubs, casinos, and golf courses.

• He believed getting clients liquored up was the key to building relationships and closing business.

• He was hosting people at his house five-plus days a week, sometimes 15 to 20 people on a random weeknight.

Key Insight: “I thought alcohol was my superpower... and boy was I wrong.”

[07:22] The Awkward Shift: Staying Social Without the Bottle

• When Ian stopped drinking, longtime friends and clients assumed something was wrong with him.

• He still takes clients out and stays social, he just doesn’t drink to do it.

• Watching his transformation has made several longtime clients sober curious, and a few have cut back or quit entirely.

Key Insight: “It’s such a ripple effect, the silent impact you’re making that you don’t even realize the reach that you have.”

[10:59] Rock Bottom and Rehab: Inside Aversion Therapy

• In 2017, Ian checked into Schick’s Shadow, one of only two facilities in the country offering aversion therapy for alcoholism at the time.

• The ten-day program paired doses of ipecac with real alcohol, training his body to associate drinking with violent nausea. He says the aversion still works today, almost a decade later.

• He walked out of treatment on Halloween, drove straight home, and was served divorce papers in his garage.

Key Insight: “Unless you’re right, nothing’s going to be right, no matter what you do.”

[16:56] Sobriety Was the Easy Part: Facing the Emotions Underneath

• Ian says quitting drinking was simple compared to processing decades of emotions he’d been numbing.

• He hired an accountability coach right out of rehab and still talks to her every week.

• He rebuilt his mornings around no phone for the first 30 minutes, breath-work, journaling, a cold plunge, and a page of reading before the gym. He lost 85 pounds in the process and credits Atomic Habits for the idea of stacking small changes over time.

Key Insight: “Getting sober was the easy part for me. Today you have all the emotions, all the things I was numbing for 40-plus years.”

[25:28] Creativity, Impact, and the Power of Your Circle

• For Ian, creativity isn’t art or a hobby. It’s making an impact by sharing his story so someone else can become a better parent, partner, or business owner.

• He tells people who want to get sober that their circle is the real obstacle. Changing who you spend time with is uncomfortable, but necessary.

• He’s already sketching his next book, tentatively titled Circle of Four or Power of Five, about how the people you run with decide where you end up.

Key Insight: “Your circle’s your problem.”

Key Quotes

“I caught how to drink very, very well.” - Ian Fee

“Things are caught, not taught.” - Ian Fee

“I was in the fast lane, in the fog, with the emergency brake on. Today it’s sunny skies, no emergency brake, and doing 90 in the fast lane.” - Ian Fee

“Unless you’re right, nothing’s going to be right, no matter what you do.” - Ian Fee

“Your circle’s your problem.” - Ian Fee

Resources Mentioned

Wild Ride to Sobriety - Ian Fee’s memoir, purchase link below.

Atomic Habits by James Clear - referenced as Ian’s model for stacking small habits over time.

Schick’s Shadow - the aversion therapy rehab program Ian completed in 2017, formerly with locations in Seattle and Florida.

Where to Find Ian Fee

Memoir - Wild Ride to Sobriety

Website - https://ianfee.com/

Your Next Step

Ian’s story keeps coming back to one idea: the people around you decide where you end up. Getting sober didn’t just change what he drank, it changed who he spent his time with, and that’s the part most people underestimate.

If you’re sensing that alcohol, or the circle built around it, might be capping what you’re capable of, let’s talk about it. Coaching starts with a single conversation, no pitch, just a look at what’s actually in the way.

Book a conversation

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , and everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to for his honesty and generosity in sharing his story. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

When alcohol entered the picture at 14, it did what it does. It made the buried stuff easier to ignore. By the time she was a Division I college athlete, then a corporate strategist, then a founder, she had spent decades performing for rooms that weren’t always designed for her. It wasn’t until she sat in a funeral home listening to strangers talk about a father she’d never met that something finally broke open in a way she couldn’t put back down.

Jen is five and a half years alcohol-free. She coaches creators, feelers, and rebuilders. She writes on Substack at the Divergent Talent Alchemist. And in this conversation, she said out loud some things she’d never said before.

SHOW NOTES

[05:27] The First Drink, the First Game, and What She Thought It Proved

Jen was 14, new to town, in the woods with high school friends, holding either a Busch Light or Natural Ice, something really disgusting.

• The feeling she described was immediate: something lifting off her brain. Stress gone. A switch flipped.

• She went home, got sick on her carpet and her pink Timberlands, flipped the rug over, and played the game of her life the next morning.

• That combination, the relief plus the invincibility, told her brain something it would take decades to unlearn.

• By college, she was a Division I soccer player who got injured her sophomore year and ended up at frat parties in a wheelchair. The party came to her.

Key Insight: “It felt like something lifted up off of my brain. I was like, oh, you know, this kind of feels interesting. Like I feel less stress. Where has this kind of been my whole life.” — Jen Benford

[09:04] Adoption, Instability, and the Weight She Carried Without Knowing

Jen was adopted at three, but the story started earlier than that.

• She lived in four homes before she was two or three. Her birth parents showed up at her aunt and uncle’s door. Nobody even knew they were pregnant.

• Her aunt and uncle raised her until circumstances led her to live with her blood grandmother, and after her grandmother passed, she was formally adopted.

• At 19, she found out about the half-siblings. Her uncle paid her birth mother five dollars to sign away parental rights. These were things she processed slowly, over years.

• She describes two things being true at once: deep gratitude for the family that raised her, and real grief for what happened before them.

Key Insight: “I went through life saying like, oh yeah, I was adopted into this family and it’s great and I’m so, so grateful. It’s like two things can be true.” — Jen Benford

[14:10] The Funeral That Became a Turning Point

When Jen’s birth father passed away, she was with her husband Hans. Her body reacted before her mind could catch up.

• She described it as “projectile, like everywhere” — a full physical response she now understands as her body finally releasing something it had been holding for years.

• At the funeral, strangers kept saying “Oh, look, it’s Jimmy’s daughter.” He had talked about her soccer career to people he’d never introduced her to.

• He had struggled with schizophrenia and had no car, no resources. But he walked to and from AA meetings and made the coffee for the group. People called him Coffee Pot. His purpose was to help others who were struggling.

• In the parking lot afterward, Jen opened a note in her phone. Two things: start her business and dedicate it to him. And cut out alcohol before she ended up where too many people in that room already were.

Key Insight: “I opened up a note in my phone afterwards and I was like, okay, two things. One, I’m going to start my own business and dedicate it to him. And two, I somehow need to cut out alcohol because specifically alcohol was the thing for me that really, like nothing good ever came from it.” — Jen Benford

[20:22] Going Cold Turkey and Reliving Everything

Her last drink was March 2021, the height of COVID.

• Cold turkey. No AA. Before she got there, she saw a neurologist, a psychiatrist, a psychologist. She committed to actually processing what she’d been carrying.

• The first three months were the hardest. When the suppressant disappears, the suppressed stuff surfaces.

• She was reliving breakups, old grief, old wounds, with a vividness that surprised her. Everything she had shoved down came back up clear.

• She stayed with it. She was in therapy. She didn’t slip.

Key Insight: “Once you pull that plug, everything comes up and now you don’t have a suppressant. While it was cold turkey, there were times where I was probably wanting to shove some stuff down. But I never did. I was just working. I was in therapy and I was working through processing a lot of this trauma that I had been carrying with me my whole life.” — Jen Benford

[24:44] Being Bullied in Middle School and What She Did About It

Jen had always felt a little different. And in middle school, that made her a target.

• Two girls were spreading rumors, threatening to fight her. On picture day, she took her hoop earrings out and put her hair up.

• A crowd formed in the hallway. One of the girls told her that her “real parents” gave her up because she wasn’t good enough. Said she was worthless.

• Jen had the books in her arms. When the girl bumped into her, she threw them.

• She never forgot that moment. Not because of the fight. Because of what it took to finally stop absorbing what other people were projecting onto her.

Key Insight: "Your real parents did this and gave you up because you weren't good enough. Like you're worthless. I would have given you up too. And I can feel like I was a very soft person leading up to this and I like feel like just the anger and the rage and the like everything coursing through my veins." — Jen Benford

[33:36] The Alphabet Soup of Diagnosis and What It Actually Helped Her Understand

ADHD at 29 or 30. CPTSD after that.

• She was in Gifted and Talented as a kid. The system missed a lot.

• She calls it alphabet soup — the medical system throwing terminology at you. But she doesn’t dismiss it either. The labels gave her access to rabbit holes that helped her understand her brain, her body, how she shows up.

• The triggers don’t disappear. That’s the thing she’s clear about. The body keeps the score. The work is learning to manage and still build something meaningful while that’s true.

• She sees the gaps: in schools, in the medical system, in homes. Kids aren’t taught to regulate their nervous systems, name what they’re feeling, or ask for help. Alcohol fills that void by default.

Key Insight: “The thing about it is the triggers don’t go away because the body does keep the score. And so it’s like how can you manage these things and build a life that you love and just be the best that you can for you and others while you’re here.” — Jen Benford

[39:11] What Life Looks Like Now

Jen and her husband live on a micro farm in North Carolina. Goats. Chickens. Ducks.

• Slow mornings. No alarm clock. Coffee with the dogs.

• She writes on Substack, coaches clients, consults on branding, and helps people build brands that start with identity before they ever touch strategy.

• She launched The Divergent Brand, a 12-week cohort for creators, founders, and people leaving corporate who want to build something built around who they actually are.

• Her encouragement for anyone thinking about walking away from alcohol: ask for help earlier than you think you need to. Get a mentor. You don’t have to carry it alone.

Key Insight: “I feel like days have got like double or triple as long and I’m able to savor those little moments, which are what make life worth living.” — Jen Benford

Key Quotes

“It felt like something lifted up off of my brain. I was like, oh, you know, this kind of feels interesting. Like I feel less stress. Where has this kind of been my whole life.” — Jen Benford

“I never realized how many emotions I was actually stuffing down until, you know, the last six or seven years.” — Jen Benford

“Once you pull that plug, everything comes up and now you don’t have a suppressant.” — Jen Benford

“I feel like days have got like double or triple as long and I’m able to savor those little moments, which are what make life worth living.” — Jen Benford

“In order to really understand yourself, I truly believe you have to do the work first, and then you can build your brand from there.” — Jen Benford

Resources Mentioned

• Trip by Calm — a supplement Jen uses with ashwagandha, L-theanine, and magnesium as part of her sobriety toolkit

• The Divergent Brand Cohort — Jen’s 12-week brand-building program starting July 14th, covering mission, vision, values, and personal brand development for early-stage founders and people reinventing themselves. Limited spots available.

• Therapy, neurology, psychiatry — Jen credits the combination of professional support as essential to her cold turkey process

• The concept of “the body keeps the score” — the idea that unprocessed trauma lives in the body, not just the mind

Where to Find Jen

The Divergent Talent Alchemist

Storytelling shaped by wellness, for creators and aspiring entrepreneurs building work and life on their own terms. Neurodivergence, brand, thoughtful AI, and the nervous-system work underneath all of it. Rewriting the rules, one unmasked truth at a time.

By Jen Benford

You can also find her at BenfordTalentAlchemy.com and on Instagram and TikTok.

If you’re interested in The Divergent Brand cohort starting July 14th, reach out to Jen directly through her Substack or website below.

The Divergent Brand Cohort

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , , and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her honesty and courage. She said out loud things she had never said before, and she did it all in front of you. That’s not a small thing.

From This Episode to Your Next Step

If this conversation stirred something in you, I want to hear about it.

Maybe you recognize the pattern Jen described — performing for rooms that weren’t designed for you, keeping the weight hidden, not quite sure what you’ve been carrying or how long you’ve been carrying it. Maybe alcohol has been the thing helping you not look at it too closely.

That’s exactly where a conversation can help. Not a sales call. Just a real talk about where you are, what you’ve been using to get through, and what might be in the way of the work you actually want to do.

Book a call with me

No pressure. No pitch. Just a conversation.

Sitting there before we took off, bags being loaded, heart racing, I seriously considered stepping out and calling the whole thing off. Five and a half years sober, and fear still shows up in the body the same way it always did. What changed is what I do with it. I kept breathing. The bus started moving. And the shift happened.

This is the story of a five-day, 40+ mile trek through the Andes — from altitude sensitivity, the fear of not being able to complete the hike, to ceremonies on mountaintops and sitting cross-legged at Machu Picchu. It wasn’t easy. It was a very expansive experience. And there’s no question I would have been riding a horse up the mountain if I were still drinking.

The trip was organized by Ryan Lee and Capsule Adventures, a sober-based adventure travel company. I was excited to experience this first, then explore what it might look like to bring something like it to the community. I signed up. Intentionally avoided looking at the full itinerary. And boarded a plane to Peru.

Show Notes

[00:00] Arrival in Cusco — When Your Body Says “Wait, What Did You Sign Me Up For?”

• Cusco sits just over 12,000 feet of elevation. The altitude hits fast and it hits hard — heart rate over 110 just sitting at breakfast, physically shaking across the table from Ryan while he described what to expect.

• The hotel had an oxygen tank on site, which I used multiple times in those first days. I also visited a local medic — just $12 — and got altitude medication that made a real difference.

• A moment of unexpected beauty broke through the anxiety: standing on the street watching a parade of women in bright red dresses spinning past, men in green playing trumpets. “I almost started to cry. I pretty much started to cry because it was just that electricity, that joy feeling that comes like a rush through your body of like — I’m here in this country.”

• The group was small: Ryan, John, Kat, Abbie, and our guide Cesar from Alpaca Expeditions. That intimacy was just right.

Key Insight:

“When you’re told something versus when you’re feeling it is entirely different.” (Relating to the acclimation of the body in higher altitudes)

[09:39] Day One — The First Test, a Lagoon, and Learning to Move Slowly

• Day one was a test hike up to a mountain lagoon — steep incline, heavy breathing, taking breaks. I discovered how much I loved the slow rhythm of the climb. The physicality of it. One step at a time.

• At the top, it started hailing. A crystal blue lagoon sat in front of them with a white mountain in the backdrop. Worth every step.

• Learning more about Cesar and his background was fascinating. He’s been doing the Inca trail for 26 years — some months, back-to-back every week. “This human being — I don’t even think he’s a human being. He just looks like a mountain. It’s almost like he’s just connected to the mountain and the spirits there.”

• First ceremony with coca leaves: holding them toward the four directions, then placing them under a rock. A ritual of respect for the mountains.

Key Insight:

“I really enjoyed the climbing — the climb up. I loved the slow pace of it and the physicality of it.”

[17:36] Day Two — The Hardest Day (And It Showed)

• 5:00 or 5:30 AM start. Cold. A massive climb with the landscape shifting from green to rock. I noticed something about perspective: standing far back and looking ahead, your mind plays tricks on the distance. Getting to the next point and looking back — “there’s like no sense of time. I had no concept of like that felt like five minutes ago and maybe it was an hour.”

• We witnessed an avalanche on the mountain. Called “small” only because the mountain it fell from was enormous.

• At the top, another ceremony. A moment of stillness. “You’re so small. You’re so so small in comparison to these ginormous mountains and space and you just look up and you’re just a speck.”

• The descent was brutal. Old trail shoes with worn tread. Stone steps, slippery dirt, switchbacks. “The descent sucked. It was so fucking terrible.”

• That night at the glass domes: high temperature, body aches, deep fear. I skipped dinner and laid in bed wondering I could go on. I ventured to the kitchen and had tea with Cesar. Nerves started to settle. Trust. Sleep.

Key Insight:

“My belief is that God is everything — like it’s this phone I’m looking at, it’s all of you. You feel that, especially in these environments where you’re so small.”

[29:06] Day Three — Into the Jungle, Waterfalls, and Hobbit Houses

• The terrain changed dramatically. Into the jungle. Waterfalls. Creeks running through the mountains. Each day felt like an entirely different world.

• Accommodations that night: “hobbit houses” — short brick structures with big round green doors, you had to duck your head to get inside.

• The personal chef who traveled with our group — hauling a massive backpack full of cooking equipment, music box playing — would pass the group on the trail and arrive ahead to have food ready when we got there. “Just absolutely mind-blowing and incredibly grateful for the delicious food.”

Key Insight:

“Each day was just so unique and just felt like totally different environments.”

[31:02] Day Four — The Fall, the Lost Phone, and a First Glimpse of Machu Picchu

• Longest mileage day. This day started with a climb through jungle, a stop at a coffee farm where we made coffee on site, and then a big push to a panoramic vista.

• From that vista, I saw Machu Picchu for the first time — “just this little speck very far away.” Then turned right and saw the Salkantay mountain they had come from. The scale of what we had covered hit differently from up there. “That view felt like HD.”

• On a tough descent through forest and rock, I took a hard fall — and realized his phone was gone. “In my mind, when that happened, I was like — that’s okay. That’s okay if I don’t have it. That was meant to be.” Cesar quietly took his time to come up to me with my phone in his hand. He got me. Big laughs.

• Along the trails, horses constantly moved through — the local “cars” for hauling materials through the mountains. We would call out “caballitos” and everyone stepped aside to let them pass.

Key Insight:

“That’s okay, that’s okay if I don’t have it. That was meant to be. And it’s all in here.”

[36:57] Day Five — Arrival to Machu Picchu

• Up at 4 AM. We climbed. Headlamp on, switchbacks in the dark, pausing to watch the clouds and mountain silhouettes take shape as the sun started to rise. “That was so, so beautiful.”

• Inside Machu Picchu: weed whackers everywhere, crowds, photo stations. If I’m completely honest — it felt a little like Disneyland at first. The expectation of the place was almost too loud.

• One of my favorite photos now: sitting cross-legged at Machu Picchu, looking out at the incredible landscape. Meditation has been part of my practice for over ten years. “I wanted that moment to last the whole day. I could just sit there and just feel the energy of the mountain and that space.”

• I did an add-on climb up Huayna Picchu — the steep mountain directly across from Machu Picchu. Tiny stone steps, metal guardrails, the scariest single climb of the whole trip. And the view from the top was its own reward.

Key Insight:

“How many thousands of years that different civilizations and people took to carve out this beautiful space — all these intentional things around astrology, where certain rocks are placed, how they would align with the stars.”

[45:09] Coming Home — The Contrast Is Real

• Back in the U.S., the post-trip integration has been hard. Health challenges. Difficulty returning to routine. The bigness of the experience hasn’t fully settled. “I had this very big, expansive experience and now I’m in this kind of contracting phase.”

• The sobriety lens on all of it: 5.5 years sober, I got to feel every moment — the fear on the bus, the joy of the parade, the exhaustion and the beauty and the fall and the ceremony. All of it unfiltered. “I get to have these experiences and get to feel the things that typically I would numb from.”

• A moment on day four said it all: some people in another group had stayed up until 3 AM drinking. “I couldn’t imagine having done this trip if I was still drinking.”

Key Insight:

“It’s all about the feelings — really just embracing all of it. That’s what I really appreciate. Now five and a half years sober, I get to have these experiences.”

Key Quotes

“I wanted that moment to last the whole day. I could just sit there and just feel the energy of the mountain and that space.” — Josh Woll

“That’s okay, that’s okay if I don’t have it. That was meant to be. And it’s all in here.” — Josh Woll

“My belief is that God is everything — like it’s this phone I’m looking at, it’s all of you. You feel that, especially in these environments where you’re so small.” — Josh Woll

“I get to have these experiences and get to feel the things that typically I would numb from.” — Josh Woll

“I couldn’t imagine having done this trip if I was still drinking.” — Josh Woll

Resources Mentioned

• Capsule Adventures (Ryan Lee) — Sober-based adventure travel

• Alpaca Expeditions — Trekking company; guides the Salkantay route

• Salkantay Trail — The route taken to reach Machu Picchu over five days

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , , , and many others for tuning into my story! Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

If A Different Climb Is Calling You

Every step of this trek was taken clear-headed. Every fear felt, every ceremony honored, every fall survived — all of it fully experienced because alcohol wasn’t in the way.

That’s what sobriety makes possible. Not just the absence of drinking, but the presence of everything else.

If you’re curious what’s on the other side of that, The Sober Creative Method is a 90-day journey designed to remove alcohol as the barrier to your greatest work. It’s where the trek begins.

Start Here

p.s. thought I would leave you with this photo of these insane pancakes I had. I’m still drooling about them.

Six years sober — since April 20, 2020 — she built a clinical practice, a writing life, and a clear understanding of who she is from pieces she once used as evidence against herself. What got her there wasn’t a clean arc. It was a lot of falling down, getting up, and eventually landing on one word that changed everything.

This conversation went deep on the ADHD-addiction connection, what it looks like when shame lives in the body, and what it actually takes to rebuild a life you didn’t think you deserved.

Subscribe now

Show Notes

[00:00] Welcome and Introduction

• Josh introduces Jill DePhillip, a certified registered nurse practitioner in psychiatric mental health, whose clinical work focuses on ADHD and addiction recovery.

• Jill and Josh share a sobriety year — both got sober in 2020 — and they open by acknowledging how many people found the pandemic to be a turning point.

• Jill writes Still Growing on Substack, where she covers recovery, neurodivergence, and what it means to become more fully yourself.

Key Insight: “Recovering out loud is one of the most powerful things any of us can do.” — Josh’s introduction of Jill sets the tone: this isn’t a clinical conversation. It’s a human one.

[02:24] Growing Up, Losing a Father, and Living in Someone’s Shadow

• Jill grew up in Maryland, one year apart from her older brother — both raised in a family where drinking was normalized and expected.

• They lost their father to addiction in the late 1980s. Her brother was the all-star athlete and academic. Jill spent a lot of her early life in his shadow, fielding the buzzwords ADHD kids hear constantly: apply yourself, pay attention, why can’t you focus.

• She didn’t identify drinking as a serious problem until she was 19 or 20, when wine became what she describes as “the answer” to the noise she couldn’t name.

• Her brother is also in long-term recovery. The pattern ran through the family.

Key Insight: “It sits in the back seat now, just doesn’t drive the car — but it’s still a part of me every day.” — Jill on shame, and how she’s learned to challenge it without pretending it’s gone.

[05:52] Years of Relapses and Why It Was Never a Straight Line

• Jill’s first attempt at sobriety came at 26 — attending AA meetings far from home so no one would recognize her.

• What followed was years of relapses she now understands as deeply connected to undiagnosed ADHD: the impulsivity, the emotional dysregulation, the pattern of falling and getting up and falling again.

• She describes her pre-sobriety years honestly: unhealthy relationships, instability, overdependence, wasted opportunities, a lot of shame.

• She stayed out of AA for years telling herself her story wasn’t good enough to share. “No one’s going to want to hear my story. It’s not as good.”

Key Insight: “It’s a lot of falling down. It’s a lot of getting up. It’s a lot of shame, a lot of messiness, really, like many people.” — Jill, on a recovery story that doesn’t look like the highlight reel.

[11:00] The ADHD-Addiction Connection

• People with ADHD are two to three times more likely to struggle with addiction — and Jill says we need to talk about it more and study it more.

• For neurodiverse people, especially those who went undiagnosed, the shame loop starts early: adults who don’t understand what’s happening say “why are you so lazy” and “why can’t you just pay attention,” and kids absorb it as truth.

• When something comes along that quiets the noise — wine, food, anything — it doesn’t feel like a problem. It feels like a solution.

• Jill describes ADHD not as the bouncing-off-the-walls version people imagine, but as something internal: “electricity” that runs through the body all day.

Key Insight: “ADHD people live with this electricity in their body all the time. So you have... emotional dysregulation and it’s that electricity that you can literally hear and feel all the time. So the alcohol snuffs it out. It calms it.” — Jill DePhillip

[17:46] The Invisible Girls: Masking, Burnout, and Getting Overlooked

• One of the most overlooked at-risk groups for ADHD: high-achieving girls who are masking so well that no one sees the strain underneath.

• Jill tells her teachers who are patients: the kid with ADHD in your class might be your favorite student. Straight A’s. Quiet. A little anxious. Working ten times as hard as the kid next to her to get a B.

• These kids go home overwhelmed and overstimulated, but because they perform, no one asks the right questions.

• The result is burnout, and in the worst cases, elevated suicidal risk factors among high maskers who look, from the outside, like they have everything together.

Key Insight: “We reward the performance, right? We’re performing well so you get straight A’s — good job, that means you’re worth it. Questions about emotions, we’re not asking. About executive functioning — how are you functioning, are you resting, is this hard.” — Jill DePhillip

[29:30] Regulating a Nervous System That Doesn’t Fit the Template

• Cookie-cutter advice — “just go for a walk” — doesn’t account for the task paralysis, task initiation difficulty, and demand resistance that come with ADHD and autism.

• Jill’s approach is individualized: find what you already love, then build your regulation tools around that. If you love Pilates, Pilates becomes your nervous system regulation strategy.

• The neurodiverse brain needs interest, emotion, and connection to move. When you build from desire instead of obligation, the resistance drops.

• She’s clear: there’s no one answer, and the overwhelm of information out there can actually make it worse for people who are already overwhelmed.

Key Insight: “The neurodiverse mind needs novelty... Interest, emotion, connection. All of that needs to be there.” — Jill DePhillip

[35:00] Five Weeks in the Mountains and the Word That Stuck

• In 2020, during COVID, after missing two days of work from a relapse, people showed up from every corner of Jill’s life and said: go to rehab. She agreed.

• A car came and drove her eight hours to the mountains of Pennsylvania. She left her kids, went into a week of isolation — Valium, a bird feeder outside the window, and the Transformer movie Bumblebee on a DVD player slid under the door.

• She stayed five weeks. She was afraid to come home, so she asked for a sixth.

• What she carried out with her was one word: willingness.

Key Insight: “You have to have that 100% willingness to do whatever it takes to be sober and put that first, always, every single day, the next right thing. And that’s what I wasn’t doing all these times I fell on my face. So that was the shift for me.” — Jill DePhillip

[41:30] Building a Life Worth Coming Home To

• Recovery wasn’t just getting sober. It was a divorce, a period of loneliness, learning what boundaries were, and removing relationships that were harmful — family included.

• Jill tells her own kids: you have no obligation, family or not, to stay in a relationship that hurts you.

• The rebuilding process is slow and awkward. Your relationship skills aren’t great at first. But if you hold the boundaries, the right people show up.

• Today she has a practice she loves, a closet office with a ceiling fan, and a 12-year-old daughter she says is essentially her — five steps ahead of everything Jill did.

Key Insight: “The real people that want to stay and love you for you will show up. But they won’t if you’re hiding from it, or in your own way.” — Jill DePhillip

[45:50] What Jill Is Working On Now

• Coming September: an ADHD cohort. Eight to ten people, class format, eight weeks of 90-minute sessions focused on executive functioning skills.

• Originally designed for college students, but now open to anyone in transition: coming out of rehab, navigating divorce, or any life change that’s hard on a neurodiverse brain.

• Jill is also writing on Substack (Still Growing) and describes it as cathartic: “Whatever’s that theme, I’m writing about it, and it’s amazing.”

Key Insight: “All I can do is plant seeds. That’s about all I can do to help people. We can’t do anything else. We don’t have any control over anything other than the power that that is — is planting a seed.” — Jill DePhillip

Key Quotes

“It sits in the back seat now, just doesn’t drive the car — but it’s still a part of me every day.”
— Jill DePhillip

“ADHD people live with this electricity in their body all the time. So the alcohol snuffs it out. It calms it.”
— Jill DePhillip

“We reward the performance, right? Questions about emotions, we’re not asking. About executive functioning — how are you functioning, are you resting, is this hard.”
— Jill DePhillip

“You have to have that 100% willingness to do whatever it takes to be sober and put that first, always, every single day, the next right thing.”
— Jill DePhillip

“All I can do is plant seeds. That’s about all I can do to help people.”
— Jill DePhillip

Resources Mentioned

• Jill’s Website: PlantingSeedsBH.com — including details on the September ADHD cohort

• Jill’s Substack: Still Growing — recovery, neurodivergence, and becoming more fully yourself

• Jill on Psychology Today and Pedway

• September ADHD Executive Functioning Cohort: Eight-week course, 90 minutes per week, for anyone in life transition (divorce, rehab, neurodivergent adults building new scaffolding)

• AA / 12-step programs — referenced throughout as part of Jill’s recovery foundation

Where to Find Jill

Jill’s Substack

Psychiatry, ADHD, and addiction recovery care, with real talk, soft landings, and the occasional chaos. Notes from a psychiatric NP navigating the mess and the medicine.

By Jill DePhillip, CRNP-PMH

Website: PlantingSeedsBH.com
Instagram: @plantingseeds (and variations — search Planting Seeds)
Psychology Today and Pedway directories for clinical appointments

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you , , , and many others for joining us live for this conversation, and to for her honesty, her clinical wisdom, and the courage it takes to show up as a full human being — not just a clinician. Your willingness to share the messy parts makes all the difference.

If Something Here Landed

Jill said it plainly: all she can do is plant seeds. Show up, share what she’s learned, and trust that it lands for the people it’s meant for.

Something in this conversation might have moved something in you. The electricity she described. The idea that you’ve been running on shame since you were a kid. The sense that you’ve been solving a problem alcohol was never going to fix.

If that’s where you are, I’d love to talk.

Not a sales call. Just a real conversation about what’s actually going on, what you want, and whether clarity is closer than you think.

Book a free 20-minute call

What she built from that point forward is more than something. New York Times bestselling author. Pulitzer Prize shortlisted journalist. Award-winning writer across fiction, nonfiction, memoir, and journalism. And since 2022, a solo traveler living out of a camper, logging tens of thousands of miles across America, doing the kind of deep, ground-level reporting that doesn’t fly in and fly out.

This conversation covers the full arc: the hard fall, the night her BAC hit 0.45, the moment she realized she didn’t need alcohol to dance, the myth of the tortured creative she’s spent years dismantling, and what it looks like to build a life around craft and purpose. Marya is sharp, direct, funny, and clear-eyed in a way that only comes from having earned it.

Show Notes

[00:18] Introduction: Who Is Marya Hornbacher?

• Award-winning journalist and New York Times bestselling author with 25+ years of work across fiction, nonfiction, journalism, and memoir

• Shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize; has written and taught extensively throughout her career

• Since 2022, has been living out of a camper and traveling across America, writing a weekly Substack called Going Solo at the End of the World

• Travels with her dog, Luna Moonbat

Key Insight: “She came out of rehab in spring, her words, like a snake with a brand new skin, too raw, too tender, uncalloused of belly, electric with nerves.” — Josh Woll, reading from Marya’s own writing

[03:01] The Hard Fall: Life Before Sobriety

• Marya started young and describes going down “hard and fast” — no gradual descent

• Got court-ordered to a 12-step program in her early teens; it didn’t land

• Became a runaway, got into boarding school, tried college, kept losing opportunities to addiction

• By her own account: “I kept being like, if I stop doing this, I will be able to think my way through this.” It didn’t work that way

Key Insight: “I took a drink and was face-first in the muck.” — Marya Hornbacher

[06:02] Rock Bottom: The Night That Led to Rehab

• In California in her mid-20s, family intervened — took her credit cards, her job, cleared out her apartment

• Got picked up by police, charged with resisting arrest and assaulting an officer; ended up in a psych ward

• BAC was 0.45 when she was admitted — a level that is, by any medical standard, life-threatening

• Given two choices by a social worker: Duluth Women’s Prison or rehab. She tried to choose a third option. There wasn’t one

Key Insight: “I got slapped into rehab and it saved my life, for sure it did.” — Marya Hornbacher

[08:45] New Orleans: The First Free Dance

• Barely sober, she went to New Orleans with a fiancé she could hardly remember agreeing to marry

• He wouldn’t dance. She went out on the floor anyway, in her mother’s white dress, with a Zydeco band playing

• Picked up a glass of wine out of habit, paused, and set it down

• That moment clarified something about who she was and what she didn’t need anymore

Key Insight: “I don’t need permission. I don’t need alcohol. I don’t need him. I don’t need to do anything except dance. And I would say that if I have a policy in my life, that’s about it right there.” — Marya Hornbacher

[10:00] Building a Life: Sobriety as Foundation

• Early sobriety wasn’t only about stopping substances — it was about figuring out how to be a person

• Tried the conventional path: marriage, house, hosting parties, what she calls being “a corporate trophy wife for a while”

• Eventually realized her values weren’t about money, titles, or diamond rings — they were about people, the world, and doing what she believed she was here to do

• Sobriety gave her the clarity to act in line with those values: “How would I have done any of that drinking or high?”

Key Insight: “Sobriety was part and parcel of how do I become the person that I don’t see in the world. I wanted to be the change. And whether I am or not isn’t actually the point. It’s that I can be, and I’m not inhibiting my ability to be.” — Marya Hornbacher

[14:50] Four Years on the Road: Going Solo at the End of the World

• In 2022, Marya bought a camper, shed most of what she owned, and started traveling America full-time

• Part practical: she couldn’t afford rent and keep writing. Eliminating housing overhead made continued work possible

• Part journalistic: she’d grown tired of “parachute journalism” — flying in, getting the quote, flying back to somewhere fancy

• Her method is to show up, come back the next day, and the day after that, until someone in a dive bar stops seeing her as a stranger

• Has spent the most time in red states and the Southeast, in places that rarely make the news cycle

Key Insight: “What I do best is sit down in a dive bar and then come back tomorrow and then come back the next day, until they’re like, who is the weird old broad in the corner, and someone comes and tells me what their town is, what they’re doing there, what they care about. That’s the road trip, really. It’s not a trip.” — Marya Hornbacher

[18:22] The Mad Artist Myth — and Why It’s Garbage

• The idea of the brilliant, drunken creative has always struck Marya as “exhausting and nonsensical”

• Her best work came from the 10 minutes between waking up and starting to drink — that window widened as sobriety took hold

• She’s watched readers who were drawn to her early work chase the “young, disastrous train wreck girl” image — she’s determined to outlive it

• Her position: the driving force of creativity is craft and the creative imperative, not trauma, not substances

Key Insight: “You do not have to be young and fragile to write powerfully. You have to be a powerful writer.” — Marya Hornbacher

[22:00] The Craft of Truth-Telling, Writing Practice, and What’s Next

• A core principle she teaches: the hotter the material, the cooler the language has to be — precise, clear writing serves hard truths better than overwrought prose

• Her view of writing as service: “The writers I read are doing a service to me. They’re seeing the world in a way I don’t see it. And I want to be able to provide that same service.”

• Daily practice: roughly three solid hours of generative work, usually late in the day after assignments are done — she notes 15 minutes also counts if that’s what you’ve got

• Her book, coming out spring 2027, adds to a long tradition of American road narratives — told from the perspective of a woman who went on the road because she was fleeing a predator and was broke, and what it took to do it without fear

Key Insight: “To describe something or observe something with precision and care is a way of loving. And this is my way of loving the world, is to observe it as clearly and as openly as I can. And that is — I truly believe — what I’m here to do.” — Marya Hornbacher

Key Quotes

“I took a drink and was face first in the muck.” — Marya Hornbacher

“I don’t need permission. I don’t need alcohol. I don’t need to do anything except dance. And I would say that if I have a policy in my life, that’s about it right there.” — Marya Hornbacher

“The hotter the material, the cooler the language has to be.” — Marya Hornbacher

“You do not have to be young and fragile to write powerfully. You have to be a powerful writer.” — Marya Hornbacher

“To describe something or observe something with precision and care is a way of loving. And this is my way of loving the world, is to observe it as clearly and as openly as I can.” — Marya Hornbacher

Resources Mentioned

• Wasted by Marya Hornbacher — her landmark memoir (referenced by listeners in the live Q&A)

• Going Solo at the End of the World — Marya’s weekly Substack, dispatches from the road

• Her upcoming book on solo life on the American road (coming spring 2027)

Where to Find Marya Hornbacher

Going Solo at the End of the World

Solo traveler and New York Times bestselling author goes rogue to bring readers a first-person report from the far reaches of the American road.

By Marya Hornbacher

• Website: maryahornbacher.com

• Instagram: https://instagram.com/marya.hornbacher

A Word Before You Go

This conversation touched something I keep coming back to with this show. The creative life doesn’t require chaos to be real. It doesn’t need substances to have weight. What it needs is the willingness to show up to the work, day after day, with as much clarity as you can bring.

Marya has been doing that for 25+ years. She’s done it broke, on the road, in dive bars, in camper parks, through hard things she didn’t ask for. And she’s produced some of the most precise, alive writing working today.

If something in this conversation stirred something in you — if you’re wondering what your work could look like by changing your relationship with alcohol — let’s talk.

A free call, no pressure, just a conversation about where you are and what’s possible.

Explore Working Together

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , , everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her extraordinary clarity and honesty. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

What makes Jenn’s perspective worth paying attention to is that she doesn’t teach from a place of having it all figured out. She writes and works from the messy middle. In this conversation, she brings something rare: a framework grounded in personal values, honest failure, and the kind of trust that only comes from actually going through hard things.

This episode covers grief, creative burnout, the Front Porch Project she led during COVID that put an estimated $1.28 million back into her local economy, and what it means to make decisions from your values rather than from the fear of judgment.

[02:17] Growing Up Social: Alcohol as a Normal Part of Life

• Jenn grew up the youngest of five siblings in a family where alcohol was woven into every social gathering — not as a problem, but as a given

• Her brothers’ college years set the stage for what fun was “supposed to look like” — and when her turn came, she leaned into it fully, running the party house in college and carrying the habit into her 20s and 30s

• A self-help journey started by reading The Secret in her early career planted the first seeds of wanting a better version of herself

Key Insight: “I often remember just like hating myself in the morning the day after. And it wasn’t enough to keep me to not do it for the longest time.” — Jenn Ocken

[05:44] Her Father’s Heart Surgery and Choosing to Feel Grief

• In 2010, Jenn’s father went in for his second open heart surgery — his heart never pumped on its own again, and he spent five months in the ICU in Indiana while she was living in Louisiana

• She stopped drinking entirely during that period — not out of a rule, but because she wanted to feel the grief fully and understood the power of that

• She stayed social, became the sober driver, and found that choosing to feel was its own form of love

Key Insight: “I got to feel sad and feel that sadness because to me, my dad was worth it. To feel how much I loved him, to be sad for what he was in, and for losing him.” — Jenn Ocken

[08:24] Self-Respect as the Continuation of That Same Honor

• After losing her father, the pattern continued: heavy drinking, a blackout, then a flood of self-hatred the next morning

• Jenn connected this to the standard she had set during her father’s illness — if she could honor him by feeling fully, she owed herself that same care

• She landed on a values-based relationship with alcohol rather than a rule-based one, with clear boundaries that give her more freedom, not less

Key Insight: “I’m the only person that is going to be there 100% of the days that I’m alive. If I can’t treat myself well with kindness, who can I do that for other people to, or ask other people to respect me?” — Jenn Ocken

[13:57] Creative Adaptive Intelligence — What It Is and Where It Came From

• CAI is “the human capacity to navigate uncertainty without abandoning ourselves” — something Jenn noticed she had been doing for years before she found words for it

• She began to see the pattern by comparing her burnout in 2019 to her biggest successes: every real success aligned with her core values; the failures came when she drifted from them

• She distinguishes CAI from adaptive intelligence: adaptive intelligence is how you shift when you enter a room; CAI is what you bring with you to make room for yourself there

Key Insight: “Your creativity is your intelligence. Your creativity is so needed in this world. The way that you navigate what you don’t know is a strength and confidence that is surely untapped.” — Jenn Ocken

[15:04] The Front Porch Project — Creative Adaptive Intelligence in Real Time

• When COVID hit and everything shut down, Jenn launched the Front Porch Project in Baton Rouge — photographing families from the curb onto their porches, asking them to pay it forward to local businesses instead of paying her

• 40 photographers joined the mission; in three months, they estimated $1.28 million returned to the local economy

• Jenn photographed over 900 portraits in those three months — more than she had done in the previous nine or ten years combined

Key Insight: “Every single success, like the super easy successes that come to me like what that project did...that project never negated any of my core values.” — Jenn Ocken

[27:24] Self-Leadership and Being a Mirror

• Jenn teaches CAI not as a prescription but as a reflection — her goal is to help people see what’s already inside them, not to hand them a system to follow

• She revised her core value of “using zeal to empower” when she realized the truth: she can’t actually empower anyone else — empowerment is generated from within

• Self-leadership became the frame: how do you lead yourself through failure and toward the next move with enthusiasm rather than shame?

Key Insight: “I can’t empower someone. I can inspire them. I can motivate them. That empowerment is a self-job. That’s part of your self-leadership. You’re the only one that can empower yourself to do something.” — Jenn Ocken

[31:18] Core Values as a Navigation System

• Jenn uses her five core values as a real-time decision tool in uncomfortable or uncertain situations — not as aspirational ideals, but as functional, non-negotiable boundaries

• She also separates core values from priorities: both inform decisions, but they play different roles, and knowing the difference keeps you from abandoning yourself in the moment

• She shared a recent example from her own life — a friendship misunderstanding that sent her in circles until she could sit with her part in it and own her responsibility without collapsing under guilt

Key Insight: “Whenever that boundary is being squeezed, you return back to yourself. You see where it’s being negated and what is the next decision that can help you navigate the uncertainty of it.” — Jenn Ocken

[42:09] What Jenn Loves Most About Creating — And Why AI Can’t Replace It

• The thing Jenn loves most about both photography and facilitation is the sense of peace and ease she creates with people — when both parties relax into the uncertainty and let it work

• She and Josh connected on what AI-generated photos miss: the physical presence, the energy exchange between photographer and subject, the real-time adjustments, the relationship

• Both agreed that AI will likely make in-person creative experiences more valuable, not less

Key Insight: “When you have a person take your picture, their energy and your energy then collide, and that energy flows throughout every time that picture is being posted.” — Jenn Ocken

[49:25] Trust, Audacity, and Showing Up Anyway

• Jenn is working to expand CAI into courses and community tools — and wrestling with the internal doubt that comes with claiming authority in a new space

• She named the conflict directly: who is she to define a new intelligence framework, when she’s a photographer without letters behind her name?

• Her answer was clear: everyone deserves access to this awareness — and being aware of it is what makes the next move possible

Key Insight: “Being aware of your own innate ability to navigate uncertainty without abandoning yourself will give you empowerment to be able to give yourself empowerment, to move forward, to trust, to grow confidence, to do the next damn thing that you want to do.” — Jenn Ocken

Key Quotes

“I got to feel sad and feel that sadness because to me, my dad was worth it. To feel how much I loved him, to be sad for what he was in, and for losing him.” — Jenn Ocken

“I’m the only person that is going to be there 100% of the days that I’m alive. If I can’t treat myself well with kindness, who can I do that for other people to, or ask other people to respect me?” — Jenn Ocken

“Your creativity is your intelligence. Your creativity is so needed in this world. The way that you navigate what you don’t know is a strength and confidence that is surely untapped.” — Jenn Ocken

“I can’t empower someone. I can inspire them. I can motivate them. That empowerment is a self-job. That’s part of your self-leadership. You’re the only one that can empower yourself to do something.” — Jenn Ocken

“Being aware of your own innate ability to navigate uncertainty without abandoning yourself will give you empowerment to be able to give yourself empowerment, to move forward, to trust, to grow confidence, to do the next damn thing that you want to do.” — Jenn Ocken

Resources Mentioned

• The Secret by Rhonda Byrne — the self-help book that started Jenn’s personal development journey

• Emotional Intelligence — Jenn referenced Daniel Goleman’s work as a touchpoint when talking about defining CAI as a new framework

• Front Porch Project — community photography initiative launched during COVID-19 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana

• Sunday Cup of Joy — Jenn’s free weekly newsletter, described as “my little rebellion against hustle culture”

• Creative Return — Jenn’s Substack and self-guided framework for navigating uncertainty

Where to Find Jen

Creative Return

This is not a newsletter about having your shit together or even getting your shit together. It's about recognizing what you already have — and learning to move from there without leaving yourself behind. Yes, and that's the energy here. Every Tuesday

By Jenn Ocken

• 🌐 Website: jennocken.com

• 📬 Substack: Creative Return — longer essays every Tuesday; Sunday Cup of Joy newsletter every Sunday, free

• ✍️ Blog: Thrive Resources — a monthly deep-dive essay on creative adaptive intelligence and related themes

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , and everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her extraordinary openness and wisdom. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

If Something in This Conversation Stayed With You

What Jen shared today lands differently if you’ve ever numbed your way through something that deserved to be felt. She chose presence over escape, and that choice taught her something she’s still building from.

If you’re wondering whether alcohol is the ceiling on your creative work — or whether something else is keeping you from the clarity you know is in there — let’s talk.

A free 20-minute session, no pressure, just a real conversation.

Schedule a Free Clarity Session →

In this conversation, James opened up about getting kicked out of school at 17, a two-year bender that nearly derailed his life, and the moment on September 5, 2021 when his wife told him she was scared. That was the last day he drank. What followed was a five-year journey toward clarity, purpose, and one of the most honest takes on branding, creativity, and human potential you’ll find anywhere.

What struck me most about James is his refusal to be preachy. He’s not here to tell you what to do. He’s here to show you what’s possible when you stop numbing the thing that makes you dangerous.

[00:00] Welcome and Introduction

• James Martin is a branding mentor, bestselling author, and international speaker based on the south coast of England

• He has spent 20+ years advising brands including Canva’s Design Advisory Board, Affinity, and Lincoln Design Company

• He publishes The Real Brand Life, a weekly newsletter for creators and founders

• His central idea: a brand is a recognizable reputation — what people believe about you when you’re not in the room

Key Insight: “At the center of everything James does is one idea, that a brand is a recognizable reputation.”

[02:33] The Road to Sobriety

• James grew up in the UK’s binge drinking culture, starting substances at 11 and escalating through his teens

• He was kicked out of school and home at 17 and spent two years “getting absolutely battered most days”

• He got sober on September 5, 2021 — the day his wife told him she was scared

• He went fully teetotal that day: no alcohol, no smoking, no drugs

Key Insight: “My wife said that that was the first time she’d ever been scared for me and that was the last day I drank, smoked, did any drugs.”

[12:50] What Clarity Actually Changed

• The biggest shift James noticed was mood stability — fewer extreme highs and lows

• He describes himself as fiery and intense, but sobriety made him steadier

• Client feedback and online criticism are far easier to process now

• He attributes his clearer sense of direction to having more control over his emotional reactions

Key Insight: “The most exciting thing for me is having more control over the mindset and the way I react and my emotions because I know if I can control those, I can fucking change the world.”

[16:37] The Three-Step Mission

• James shared his personal three-step plan that guides every decision he makes

• Step one: earn one of the most trusted reputations in the creative industry

• Step two: build extraordinary opportunity for others

• Step three: create real-world impact

• He described having a clear mission as protection against distraction — what he calls finding his “azimuth”

Key Insight: “My mission is to help human creativity shape the world. That is the kind of big mission. There are multiple ways in which I can do that. And will try to do that over the coming years. But that’s the thing that gets me up in the morning.”

[21:00] Writing as Discipline and Discovery

• James nearly hit a million followers on Instagram but found the treadmill unsustainable

• Substack became a place to slow down and think deeply

• He writes a monthly column for Fast Company — a goal he set at the start of the year and achieved faster than expected

• Writing his second book wasn’t enjoyable, but it forced him to get clear on who he wanted to become

Key Insight: “The pace that writing and thinking about writing and the things you want to write about want to be known for when you write are the things that empower me the most.”

[32:02] Sobriety and Creativity — Is It That Simple?

• James pushed back on the idea that sobriety automatically makes you more creative

• He acknowledges he did strong work while drinking — the question is really about fulfilling potential

• What sobriety gave him: longer days, more drive, and a clearer vision of who he wants to be

• He thinks everyone is wired differently and resists labeling people as one thing or another

Key Insight: “I feel like I am now able to fulfill my potential because I’m not in recovery a lot of the times of the day.”

[36:49] Human in an AI World

• James believes technology is always trying to catch up to human creativity, not the other way around

• His operating principle: “automate the predictable, humanise the meaningful”

• He argues that brands will be judged by what they choose to keep human

• He predicts we’ll naturally gravitate toward smaller circles and closer communities as automation expands

Key Insight: “Art school will be the new MBA because people and businesses will be needing this creativity to stand out in a not very creative world. So it will be the best creative that will get these businesses and these brands and people noticed... I think creativity is our strategic advantage so we've got to fuck shit up mate.”

[41:45] The Mastery Process and What AI Is Costing Us

• James cited a study across 80 countries showing intelligence scores dropping for the first time in generations

• He links this to short-form content and the ability to skip struggle, trial, and error

• The process of getting better at something — not the outcome — is where the real value lives

• Writing his book over six to eight months was the win; what it sells is secondary

Key Insight: “The process of writing the book was the win for me. The two years of doodling around then the quite intense six to eight months of writing... was the win because it took time and it hurt and I didn’t want to do it some days but I still did it.”

Key Quotes

“My wife said that that was the first time she’d ever been scared for me and that was the last day I drank, smoked, did any drugs.” — James Martin

“I know if I can control those, I can fucking change the world.” — James Martin

“I feel like I am now able to fulfill my potential because I’m not in recovery a lot of the times of the day.” — James Martin

“Automate the predictable, humanise the meaningful.” — James Martin

“Creativity is our strategic advantage so we’ve got to fuck shit up mate.” — James Martin

Resources Mentioned

• Reputation OS Framework — James’s system for building a recognizable reputation on your own terms

• D&AD Festival — Design and art direction conference James referenced while discussing creativity and AI

• Fast Company — Publication James now writes for monthly

• Squarespace — Referenced through David Lee, Chief Brand and Creative Officer, discussing creativity as “the only job left”

Where to Find James

The Real Brand Life

The Real Brand Life is a weekly space for creatives, founders, and builders who are curious about substance more than they are noise. If you’re tired of branding being reduced to trends, tactics, and templates, you’ll feel right at home here.

By James Martin | Made By James

• His second book is on pre-order now, dropping in September — pre-order in May includes a book club, a free course, and additional bonuses

• Watch for announcements in early July about his next major project around building opportunity for others

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , and many others who joined us live for this conversation and to for his honesty, his conviction, and a vision big enough to build schools. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Ready to Remove the Barrier to Your Best Work?

James and I don’t come from the same path, but we arrived at the same conclusion: clarity changes what you’re capable of. More energy. Longer days. A sharper sense of who you want to become.

That’s exactly what The Sober Creative Method™ is built around.

It’s a 90-day 1:1 coaching journey using the Release → Create → Become framework — built for those who are done working around the thing that’s holding them back. If you’ve been circling the question of what your work could look like with full access to yourself, this is where you start.

Learn about The Sober Creative Method™

In this conversation, Jessica got real about what happened when she started working from home, lost her structure, and found herself in a 20-week outpatient program for mental health and substance use. She came out the other side clear-headed, writing more than ever, and with something to say about what sobriety actually feels like when you strip it down to its simplest truth: “nothing has a grip on me.”

What struck me most about talking with Jessica was how she connects her athletic background, her clinical training, and her financial education into one unified understanding of human performance. The body follows the mind. The mind follows discipline. And discipline, she would tell you, is not a personality trait — it is a practice.

[00:33] Welcome and Introduction

• Josh introduces Jessica as a nurse practitioner, former pediatric oncology nurse, competitive hockey player, stock market analyst, and full-time Substack writer.

• Jessica is the creator of NP Fellow: Become the CEO of Your Health, a mental health and functional medicine newsletter built on science-backed, practical tools.

• Her background spans five years in pediatric oncology, competitive hockey at a high level, and stock market analysis — three fields that all taught her the same thing: capacity matters more than information.

• Jessica calls herself “the friend you’d call at 2 AM — the one who actually gets it.”

[03:39] Her Story: Substance Use, Structure, and Starting Over

• Jessica opened up about a difficult year that began when she transitioned to working from home full-time. Without external structure, she said, “every day is the weekend” — and that freedom became a problem.

• She described getting deeper into stimulant use, which eventually led her to enroll in an intensive outpatient program: group therapy three hours a day, three times a week, plus individual sessions — roughly 10 hours of therapy per week for 20 weeks.

• She had just completed the program about a month before this conversation and had not used any substances since entering it.

• She was honest about the pull that a heavy workload can create: “with all this work it just makes you want to be like… if I just took an Adderall I could burn through this.” She is choosing to do the work differently now.

Key Insight: “I’m not waiting for something to run out. Nothing has a grip on me. So it’s just freeing. And then the peace of mind and the clear mind is priceless.” — Jessica Drapluk

[08:43] Pediatric Oncology and the Long Road to Nurse Practitioner

• Jessica was drawn to pediatric oncology because her aunt had worked in that specialty her entire career. She described it as “super niche nursing” — a sub-specialty most people actively avoid.

• After five years at the bedside, she got her master’s to become a nurse practitioner, graduating right as COVID hit. Clinics were shutting down and NPs were being laid off.

• She pivoted to a flight nurse job with ICE, managing nurses on deportation and transfer flights. She described it as similar to military life — stranded on tarmacs, overnighting in different countries, working exclusively with law enforcement and military personnel.

• She was eventually let go when the contract ended, and she never returned to the clinical workforce. Ghostwriting came next, and then her own Substack publications.

Key Insight: “Bedside nursing is back-breaking work. It’s really hard. It’s not sustainable for anybody for 25 to 30 years. It’s a great rewarding experience but I don’t want to be doing that when I’m 50.” — Jessica Drapluk

[15:47] Writing, Publishing, and Why It Doesn’t Scare Her

• Jessica started writing online in 2021-2022 after watching advice to publish once a week for two years without expecting anything in return. She did it to prove to herself she could keep the commitment.

• She does not schedule articles weeks in advance. Her standard: “The most that I’ll ever have an article in the queue and scheduled is 48 hours tops. That means I was really on it.”

• When asked what she enjoys about writing, she was direct: “It just comes easy to me. It doesn’t really feel like work and it doesn’t feel awkward. It doesn’t feel scary.”

• She now runs three Substack publications simultaneously — NP Fellow, Nurse in the Market, and Unstuck to Publish — plus ghostwriting for two additional publications, producing six original articles per week.

Key Insight: “The reason why you’re publishing online once a week every week for two years is to prove to yourself that you could actually keep up your commitment as a writer.” — Jessica Drapluk

[20:42] Mental Health Now: Routines, Recovery, and Rewiring

• Since leaving the program, Jessica has built her own daily structure: morning yoga, walking twice a week, and continuing to participate in alumni groups from the program Monday through Friday — Canva workshops, bullet journaling, astrology — whatever keeps her connected to a rhythm.

• She described the process of adjusting to sober productivity: “I’m rewiring my brain that staying up all night is not an option.” Work gets done. It just gets done differently.

• The volume of her output keeps her engaged, but she is also learning to rest. She chose sleep over a late-night deadline, and it was a small but meaningful shift.

• The expanded workload also creates its own temptation. She was candid about that tension — and about the fact that she is navigating it without reaching for old shortcuts.

Key Insight: "It keeps me busy but it also — since my problem was with Adderall — with all this work it just makes you want to be like… if I just took an Adderall I could burn through this. There's no friction, you just do it. But I'm just trying to get away from it completely." — Jessica Drapluk

[24:17] Drive, Work Ethic, and Not Wanting to Be Average

• Jessica traced her drive directly to her athletic upbringing. She and her brothers woke up at 4 AM in middle school for hockey lessons before school. Two practices a day was routine. Her father took them to run sprints on the days they did not have practice.

• Her definition of not wanting to be average is specific: “I don’t want to be average as in broke or overweight and tired and in pain like the average person.”

• She sees financial literacy, physical health, and meaningful work as interconnected. The more you build in one area, the more capacity you have in the others.

• She described a clear throughline: more success leads to more people helped; more people helped leads to greater impact and more resources to help further.

Key Insight: “I just don’t want to be average. Like it’s so easy to become above average. Why not?” — Jessica Drapluk

[28:32] The Stock Market as a Skill Anyone Can Learn

• Jessica’s view on investing is rooted in a simple premise: there are only three ways to build wealth — own real estate, own a business, or own other businesses through the stock market. For most people, the market is the most accessible entry point.

• She described the market as “rigged to go up” — it goes up 71% of the time, and the other 29% represents buying opportunities. Her advice to beginners: start with index funds like the S&P 500 (SPY or VOO) or the Vanguard Total Market Index (VTI).

• Her framework for stock analysis moves top-down: start with macro conditions, move through sectors, then drill into individual stocks. She believes most people can learn to analyze the market in 15 minutes to an hour with the right system.

• She plans to offer stock market workshops through Nurse in the Market to help people — particularly millennials — understand how to navigate investing without fear.

Key Insight: “The stock market’s not going anywhere. So if you’re going through something rough, it’s always there for you. And if God forbid you miss it for a day or a week or a month, no one cares. It’s going to be there when you come back.” — Jessica Drapluk

Key Quotes

“I’m not waiting for something to run out. Nothing has a grip on me. So it’s just freeing. And then the peace of mind and the clear mind is priceless.” — Jessica Drapluk

“At the end of the day, having your health intact is what makes being sober worth it for me.” — Jessica Drapluk

“I just don’t want to be average. Like it’s so easy to become above average. Why not?” — Jessica Drapluk

“The reason why you’re publishing online once a week every week for two years is to prove to yourself that you could actually keep up your commitment as a writer.” — Jessica Drapluk

“Bedside nursing is back-breaking work. It’s really hard. It’s not sustainable for anybody for 25 to 30 years. It’s a great rewarding experience but I don’t want to be doing that when I’m 50.” — Jessica Drapluk

Resources Mentioned

• SPY / VOO — S&P 500 index funds (500 stocks), mentioned as a starting point for new investors

• VTI — Vanguard Total Market Index, approximately 1,500 stocks

• E-Trade / Charles Schwab — Brokerage platforms recommended for beginners

• Intensive Outpatient Program (IOP) — The treatment model Jessica used: group therapy three hours a day, three times a week, with individual sessions

• Top-down market analysis — Jessica’s framework: macro assets → sectors → individual stocks

Where to Find Jessica

NP Fellow Become the CEO of Your Health

A mental health & functional medicine newsletter helping you build emotional regulation, mental clarity, and health ownership.

By Jess, The Creator

• NP Fellow: Become the CEO of Your Health — Mental health and functional medicine newsletter (her original publication, running since 2022)

Nurse in The Market

Helping busy professionals navigate the stock market using a systematic approach so you can build wealth on your own terms without looking at charts all day.

By Jess, The Creator

• Nurse in the Market — Stock market analysis, swing trading picks, and investing education: NurseInTheMarket.com

Unstuck to Published

Turn your Substack from an idea into a live, paid publication—in 60 minutes, without guessing what to do next.

By Jess, The Creator

• Unstuck to Publish — Substack-building workshop for new writers; learn to build your publication from scratch in 60 minutes or less. Workshop runs every other Saturday.

• Live Debate with Mick — May 30th, 10 AM Eastern — Eminem vs. MGK: who’s better? Catch Jessica and Mick live on Substack.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , , and everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her honesty, her energy, and her willingness to share a story that is still unfolding. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

From This Episode to Your Next Step

Jessica spent 20 weeks in an outpatient program, came out clear-headed, and immediately got back to work. She is producing six original articles a week, running workshops, ghostwriting for others, and building toward stock market education. That is not hustle culture. That is what it looks like when your nervous system is regulated, your mind is clear, and you actually have access to your own capacity.

That is exactly what The Sober Creative Method™ is built around.

This 90-day 1:1 coaching experience uses a Release → Create → Become framework to help individuals remove alcohol as the barrier to their most meaningful work.

If you have been wondering what you could actually produce with a clear mind — or if you have started to sense that something is holding you back — this is worth a look.

Explore The Sober Creative Method™

He has been sober for 18 years. He got sober at 20. He never had a legal drink in the United States.

What comes through in this conversation is not a highlight reel. Cory writes about radical life transitions from the inside, in real time, through his Substack Radical Paths—documenting what it actually costs, what breaks down, and what emerges. He is currently anchored in Guatemala, living on 100 square feet of sailboat in over-100-degree heat. And he would not lead with that.

This episode covers what sobriety taught him about doing hard things, how he thinks about fear, and why he believes the struggle itself is where meaning lives.

If you have ever stood at a crossroads between the life you have built and the life you are drawn to, this one is worth your time.

[01:45] Introduction

• Teenage punk from an LA suburb who got sober at 20, went from Portland Community College to a Harvard PhD

• Spent years as a senior federal scientist and congressional advisor, including real-time COVID-19 briefings with members of Congress

• In 2024, rebuilt a dilapidated sailboat by hand with his husband and sailed away—nearly 5,000 miles up and down the East Coast, through the Bahamas, now anchored in Guatemala

• Writes weekly about radical life transitions through his Substack, Radical Paths

Key Insight: “What makes Corey’s story worth paying attention to isn’t the adventure itself—it’s how he thinks about change. He writes about radical life transitions from the inside, in real time... Not in hindsight, not with the benefit of a clean ending.” — Josh Woll

[02:15] Before Sobriety — A Small Life in a Big World

• Grew up in an LA suburb, came out in high school around 2003-2004, and used alcohol and drugs to cope with living in a world that was not welcoming of queer people

• Wanted out of LA badly enough that at 19 he flew to Australia with $2,000 and a one-way ticket, no safety net

• Australia’s drinking age was 18—one of the reasons he chose it—and within a week he was using hard drugs, including crystal meth

• After six months abroad, he came home flat broke, moved back in with his parents, and things got worse

Key Insight: “I know that’s a common thing that people can relate with—they call like geographics—where people deep in addiction will be like, oh, you know what I really need is just to move. Like that’s going to fix everything. And sometimes maybe that works, but a lot of times you just take your problems with you and start new ones.” — Cory Gerlach

[06:20] The Turning Point — A Customer, a Phone Call, a Friday Night

• A customer at the coffee shop where Cory worked recognized something in him—the man had a daughter who had struggled with heroin and he gently suggested rehab

• Cory called on a Friday. They could not take him until Sunday. He told them he would be fine—and that Friday night was the wake-up call

• He did not go into rehab thinking he would stop drinking forever. He thought his problem was cocaine. The realization came when he started identifying with people decades older whose stories matched his exactly

• He saw his future if he kept going, and he made a different choice

Key Insight: “I trusted that in order for me to really have to build a life that I wanted, I wasn’t going to be able to do it while drinking and using—because I knew the way that I did it was not in any moderation whatsoever. I never even had the fantasy of moderation and I was a total and complete mess.” — Cory Gerlach

[15:46] Sobriety as a Foundation — The Mirror Moment

• About a month into sobriety, still living with his parents, Cory caught himself in a mirror and felt something shift

• That moment cracked open a new belief: that being sober, having hope, forming real connections—that was enough

• He carried that anchor forward into everything else: community college, Oregon State, Harvard, government work, and eventually sailing

• The first year and a half of sobriety was the hardest thing he had ever done—and it set the template for every hard thing that followed

Key Insight: “I feel like a millionaire right now. I feel so... I feel like I have everything I need.” — Cory Gerlach

[20:43] From Harvard to Open Water — Building a Radical Path

• After finishing his PhD, Cory built an unusual government career—using his science background to advise on public health policy, including one-on-one briefings with members of Congress during COVID-19

• He and his husband eventually felt they had drifted from their core values of authenticity, adventure, and freedom

• They decided to go sailing with almost no experience—his husband had sailed small dinghies one season; that was the sum of it

• They bought a boat that needed massive work, moved to North Carolina, and spent 10 months rebuilding it by hand before it was sailable

Key Insight: “It wasn’t even like a question of like can I do it—it’s like do I want to do it? And also realizing that if I’m sober, I have everything I need.” — Cory Gerlach

[26:46] Fear Is Not a Stop Sign — It Is Information

• Cory describes himself as an ordinary person when it comes to fear—not wired like Alex Honnold, whose brain literally registers fear differently

• What has changed is his relationship to fear. He does not let it be the deciding vote

• He camped alone in Yellowstone to face his irrational fear of bears. He walked alone through New Orleans and Bogotá to face his fear of violence

• The finding, repeated every time: the idea of the thing is far scarier than actually doing it

Key Insight: “It’s not acceptable for me to let fear stop me from doing things... there’s things I want to do and my first thought is fear and then I’m faced with a decision about, okay, do I do it or not?” — Cory Gerlach

[37:35] Doing Hard Things Is the Point — Easy Is Not the Answer

• Cory pushes back on the idea that the goal is to find a shortcut—he does not advocate that anyone quit their job and become a sailor

• What he does believe is that real change requires committing to a timeline. In sobriety, it was “give yourself a year.” On the boat, it was the same

• Meaning does not come from achieving the dream. It comes from the work toward it—and from discovering that even after you get there, you will want something else

• The challenge is not an obstacle to the life. It is the life

Key Insight: “I don’t know anyone that’s really been able to do like a big life change—including sobriety—that didn’t require a shit ton of work, you know, at least one day at a time.” — Cory Gerlach

Key Quotes

“I trusted that in order for me to really have to build a life that I wanted, I wasn’t going to be able to do it while drinking and using—because I knew the way that I did it was not in any moderation whatsoever.” — Cory Gerlach

“Recovery and sobriety was like one of the first things where I learned that... doing hard things is actually okay. That’s how I get where I want to go next.” — Cory Gerlach

“It’s not acceptable for me to let fear stop me from doing things... there’s things I want to do and my first thought is fear and then I’m faced with a decision about, okay, do I do it or not?” — Cory Gerlach

“We’ve done hard things before and we can do them again.” — Cory Gerlach

“There isn’t really such thing as a happily ever after when we follow our dreams, per se. Things are hard along the way and we have fear and we struggle and we have challenges. We’re able to get through it over time. And over time, you start to have a life that you are really proud of and really love.” — Cory Gerlach

Resources Mentioned

• Free Solo (documentary) — Alex Honnold’s free climb of El Capitan; discussed in the context of how individuals experience fear differently

• Dark Wizard (documentary) — A climber and tightrope walker who operates without safety equipment; referenced when discussing the spectrum of risk tolerance

• The Revenant — Leonardo DiCaprio film; Cory’s mental image when camping alone in bear country

• “Geographics” — The phenomenon in addiction where someone believes moving will fix their problems; referenced from recovery culture

• Radical Paths — Cory’s weekly Substack newsletter documenting life transition in real time

Where to Find Cory

Radical Paths

Honest lessons for navigating radical life transitions — from a sailboat, in real-time, as I live what I teach.

By Cory Gerlach

Substack: Cory writes weekly at Radical Paths—stories about the real cost and reward of radical life change, told from a 30-foot sailboat somewhere in the Americas.

He also works one-on-one with people standing at their own crossroads—people who have built the career, hit the milestones, and still feel like something is off.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , and everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to for his honesty and generosity of spirit. Documenting a life transition in real time—without a clean ending, without the comfort of hindsight—takes real courage. This conversation is the kind that stays with you.

Is Something Holding You Back?

Cory talks about what happens when you have built the career, checked the boxes, and still feel like something is off. Alcohol often lives in that space. Maybe you have made the rules, reset the counter, had the conversation with yourself more times than you can count. Maybe you are not even sure it is a problem — you just know something keeps getting in the way.

Answer 10 questions, see clearly where you stand, and learn what your next step is.

It takes 5 minutes and it is completely free.

Start here with the free assessment

As a psychotherapist, author, and founder of Sensitivity Management, Jonathan has built a framework that reframes sensitivity not as a flaw to fix, but as a survival mechanism to understand. His work pulls from evolutionary psychology, polyvagal theory, attachment theory, and sensory processing science to explain something most people have felt but never had language for: why feelings hit some of us so much harder than others.

This conversation went deep. We talked about his own path through addiction, the moment he realized sobriety wasn’t just about stopping — it was about learning to manage what was underneath all along. If you’ve ever reached for a drink at the end of a hard day and couldn’t explain why, this one’s for you.

Show Notes

[00:00] Introduction

• Jonathan is the founder of Sensitivity Management, a psychotherapist, and published author with Hodder and Stoughton

• His framework draws on evolutionary psychology, polyvagal theory, attachment theory, and sensory processing science

• His work has been featured in The Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, and on BBC News and ITV

• He’s currently exploring the relationship between sensitivity and addiction on his own Substack

Key Insight: “Perhaps most relevant to this conversation is something Jonathan plans to explore on his own Substack — the relationship between sensitivity and addiction, the idea that for many of us, substances were a way of managing what felt, at the time, unmanageable.”

[02:01] Jonathan’s Story — Loss, Fear, and the First Drink

• Jonathan grew up in a household where feelings weren’t discussed — his father was born in 1920, and sensitivity wasn’t on the table

• His mother was diagnosed with cancer when he was 11 and died when he was 17; he began drinking and using cocaine as a way to manage unprocessed grief

• He describes feeling “porous” — overwhelmed by stimulation, unable to let things go, running in survival mode for most of his life

• Relapses eventually led him to a reckoning: “my last one was the one where I said, that is it because I left the building and I was no longer me”

Key Insight: “Sensitivity is not what creates my addiction, but it definitely led me to it as a way to escape and a way to regulate.”

[07:55] What Sensitivity Actually Means

• The word sensitivity comes from the Latin to sense, feel, assess, and perceive — it is not weakness, it is a survival mechanism

• We are all born highly sensitive; the difference is in how that sensitivity was conditioned over time

• Sensitivity is about the sensory nervous system — visual, auditory, gut, and interoceptive signals

• The stigma around the word sensitivity prevents people from naming it — and if you can’t name it, you can’t work with it

Key Insight: “We are all sensory beings. The word sensory tells us that we are governed by our sensory nervous systems. When we look at mental health, it’s not all up here — it’s through our visual senses, auditory senses, gut senses, interoceptive senses.”

[13:29] The Sensory Regulation Cycle

• Jonathan developed the Sensory Regulation Cycle to show how sensitivity fluctuates throughout the day

• The cycle: stress event → energy drain → lowered resilience → heightened sensitivity → pitfalls (overthinking, impulsivity, porousness) → sensory spiral → burnout

• When energy is low, resilience is low — and that’s when self-sabotage moves in without warning

• The goal isn’t long breaks; it’s the quality of regulation: “it’s not the quantity of regulation, it’s the quality of regulation”

Key Insight: “When you’re more regulated, you can access the positives of sensitivity — empathy, connection, creativity, strategic thinking. Heightened sensitivity means you’re in survival mode — overthinking, impulsivity, self-sabotage without even realizing it.”

[22:15] Why the End of the Day Feels Unmanageable

• Every sensory input throughout the day — emails, noise, phone pings, screens — drains energy

• By evening, resilience is low, which means feelings surface without a filter

• Impulsivity spikes: you’ll make the call you shouldn’t, pick the fight, pour the drink

• The reframe: “this is not anxiety — this is just because I’m tired”

Key Insight: “How many times in the evening have you thought, I’m going to do that, and you’ve got no resilience to stop yourself from doing it?”

[26:13] Regulation in Practice — What Actually Helps

• Turn off your phone and calm your visual senses first — it’s the most overstimulated of all the senses

• A 20-30 minute window of quality regulation can restore focus, clarity, and energy

• Nature (even just looking at the sky) regulates through the visual sense

• Be honest about which senses are most drained — for Jonathan, it’s visual and auditory

Key Insight: “A small period of regulation and energy management — if I lose energy in one part of the afternoon, I only need 20 minutes. I come out and my energy is back up. Focus, clarity, performance, productivity.”

[30:10] Addiction, Energy, and Why Recovery Takes Time

• The longer you’re in addiction, the more depleted your energy becomes — and the harder it is to choose differently

• “When people are so depleted in addiction — you know, we’re running on we’re just tired all the time”

• Recovery demands rest first: sleep, naps, restoration — the body is healing and using energy to do it

• Sensitivity management in recovery is not optional: “I have to prioritize regulation on a daily basis and managing my energy on a daily basis out of fear that if I run in a highly sensitive state in survival mode, I will pick up again”

Key Insight: “For me, addiction is a gift because for me, it makes me me. I have to prioritize regulation on a daily basis.”

[33:31] What Addiction Really Means — and What Freedom Looks Like

• Jonathan respectfully disagrees with the “opposite of addiction is connection” framing

• For him: “Addiction is prison. The opposite of addiction is freedom.”

• Sobriety is about becoming someone he recognizes and respects: “Sobriety is someone I know, I like, and I value”

• Community and connection matter deeply in recovery, but freedom is the foundation underneath

Key Insight: “Addiction is complete. Addiction is a complete change of character. It’s someone I don’t like. It’s someone I don’t know.”

Key Quotes

“Sensitivity is not what creates my addiction, but it definitely led me to it as a way to escape and a way to regulate.” — Jonathan Hoban

“I’ve never met someone in addiction that isn’t sensitive.” — Jonathan Hoban

“Addiction is prison. The opposite of addiction for me is freedom.” — Jonathan Hoban

“For me, addiction is a gift because for me, it makes me me.” — Jonathan Hoban

“If you can’t name sensitivity, you’re shutting the door on everything.” — Jonathan Hoban

Resources Mentioned

• Sensitivity Management Framework — Jonathan’s proprietary model integrating polyvagal theory, attachment theory, evolutionary psychology, and sensory processing science

• The Sensory Regulation Cycle — Jonathan’s visual tool mapping how sensitivity fluctuates from baseline through burnout

• Johann Hari — referenced and respectfully challenged; Jonathan’s counterpoint to “the opposite of addiction is connection”

• Ice baths / nature walks — regulation practices Jonathan uses personally to lower ADHD presentation and restore clarity

Where to Find Jonathan

Jonathan Hoban is the founder of Sensitivity Management and an integrative psychotherapist based in London. He works with individuals and organizations including Warner Brothers, the Department for Transport, and firms in the legal and insurance sectors.

Website: www.sensitivitymanagement.com

He’s also launching Live Coffee Shop Talks — up-close workshops across London where he breaks down the Sensitivity Management framework in an accessible, community-centered format.

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to for his extraordinary clarity and generosity of insight. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

From This Conversation to Your Life

What Jonathan described — that low-level hum of unease at the end of the day, the need to take the edge off, the way sensitivity turns into survival mode when energy runs out — that’s the exact threshold where so many people reach for a drink.

Not because they’re weak. Because they’re depleted and don’t have the tools to do anything else.

That’s what The Sober Creative Method™ is built around. A 90-day, 1:1 journey designed to help you remove alcohol as the barrier to your clearest, most creative work — and build the identity and the practices to sustain it.

If Jonathan’s framework made something click for you today, this is the next step.

Start Here

Shelly is the writer behind Cozy Clarity, a Substack she describes as “a space where soft and strong collide.” Her work sits at the intersection of personal development, mental health, and the lived experience of figuring it all out in real time. Her essays don’t let readers off the hook — they write directly about the gap between knowing something and doing something about it.

In this episode of Clear Conversations, Shelly shares how quitting her job, stepping away from substances, and going nearly a year without a paycheck led her to the work she was meant to do.

It’s a conversation about listening to your body, allowing yourself to feel discomfort, and what happens when you stop running from the same day on repeat.

Show Notes

[00:00] Welcome & Guest Introduction

• Josh introduces Shelly, the writer behind Cozy Clarity on Substack

• Cozy Clarity covers personal development, mental health, mindset, and “the lived experience of figuring it all out in real time”

• This is Shelly’s first-ever Substack Live

Key Insight: “Cozy enough to feel like home, but honest enough to ask something of you.” — Josh, reading from Shelly’s Substack description

[3:06] From Music to Mechanics: An Unlikely Origin Story

• Shelly grew up in a car family but had no interest in vehicles — she was a musician, first-chair bass clarinetist who competed at the national level

• After getting her first car and nearly being taken advantage of by a dishonest tech, she decided she’d never let that happen again and taught herself the trade

• She became an apprentice at a dealership and worked her way up fast, eventually working for nearly every major automotive brand

Key Insight: “After that, I was like, I don’t want anybody else to touch my car again. So I want to learn how to work on cars now.” — Shelly

[5:07] Being the Only Woman in the Shop

• Working as a female mechanic was difficult — Shelly was often the only woman in the shop

• She sought out other women in the industry and tried to learn from them, but each time those connections fell apart under unclear circumstances

• The combination of isolation and lack of genuine support wore on her over time

Key Insight: “I kind of felt isolated from everybody else at a certain point. And so I was kind of using all of that stuff to suppress it and just tell myself it doesn’t matter. Just keep on going.” — Shelly

[7:30] Recognizing the Breaking Point

• When the environment at her last shop changed under new management, Shelly decided it was time to step back from automotive work entirely

• She describes feeling like she was “reliving the same day over and over and over again”

• She quit her job, stopped smoking marijuana (which she’d used daily since age 15), and stopped drinking — all at once, three and a half years ago

Key Insight: “It felt like the same day on repeat. I feel burnt out. I’m reliving the same day over and over and over again. I don’t know how to escape it. So I knew something had to change.” — Shelly

[12:37] A Year of Deliberate Unemployment

• After leaving the automotive world, Shelly stayed unemployed for nearly ten months on purpose

• She tried going back to a heavy-duty shop briefly, realized quickly it wasn’t the path she wanted

• She found Substack, went “full throttle” — started writing, built a website, created digital products

Key Insight: “I just kind of figured I need to take a step back from this and maybe start not going away from it, but just exploring what else is out there and what else would spark my interest. ‘Cause I am a multi-passionate person.” — Shelly

[14:30] Early Sobriety: The First Three Months

• The first few weeks were brutal — the urge to go back was constant

• Family and her boyfriend kept telling her to give it time: “Nothing really happens noticeably in a couple of weeks. Just give it some more time and see how you feel”

• It took three months before she started noticing a real difference, a timeline Josh confirmed matched his own experience

Key Insight: “Before you hit the three month mark, it feels like you’re not really giving it a chance. But after the three month mark... just keep pushing it until you hit that mark and see what your body tells you, see what your mind tells you, see how you feel.” — Shelly

[18:35] Creativity, Process, and the Art of Winging It

• Shelly doesn’t work from a formal creative process — ideas surface throughout the day while she’s working her part-time job and she captures them in her notes app

• Once she sits down to write, more ideas come and things flow from there

• She calls herself “a professional at winging it”

Key Insight: “I usually never go into anything with a plan. It just, I just start and it just comes to me after I start.” — Shelly

[26:25] Sitting Still in a Do-Do-Do Culture

• Shelly and Josh discuss the cultural pressure to always be moving, always be producing

• Shelly believes that doing nothing — sitting with your thoughts for an hour or more each day — is actually productive, even when it doesn’t feel that way

• The practice of listening to your body has guided every major decision Shelly has made: leaving shops, leaving substances, finding writing

Key Insight: “You’re allowed to just do nothing for a while. Just sit there and feel your thoughts, think of new things. You don’t constantly have to be go, go, go... even though it feels unproductive, I think it actually is pretty productive.” — Shelly

Key Quotes

“I started smoking like from the second I woke up to the second I went to bed... it got to a point where I felt like I was never sober. I was never really in a clear mindset.” — Shelly

“I feel like a lot of it has to do with the idea that it’s not really pushed on that you’re just allowed to go out and do your own thing. A lot of people have it in their head that you wake up and you go to work, and that’s just how it is. That’s how it’s supposed to be. It’s not always how it actually has to be in real life.” — Shelly

“Sometimes you really do just have to sit there and be with it, just feel it for a while. Even if that means sitting there and honestly just sitting there and staring at a wall if you need to.” — Shelly

“Give it at least to month three. What I’ve come to find out is after three months, it’s like before you hit the three month mark, it feels like you’re not really giving it a chance.” — Shelly

“I feel like it’s definitely part of the universe is trying to align you for where you actually belong and trying to push you in the right direction.” — Shelly

Resources Mentioned

• Cozy Clarity (Shelly’s Substack) — essays on mental health, mindset, and personal development

• “You’re Not Lazy. You’re Burnt Out, Overstimulated and Craving Peace” — Shelly’s featured essay on running on autopilot and finding your spark again

• Upcoming essay: Part-time jobs and the multi-passionate person — how working fewer hours can unlock more of who you are

• Digital products (relaunching): Anxiety journals, a Digital Creator’s Guide, mental health guides, and automotive maintenance checklists

Where to Find Shelly

Cozy Clarity

A soft space to unwind, reflect and grow through life’s twists and turns.

By Shelly

Website (coming soon): https://www.CozyClarity.com (Shelly posts regular updates on her Substack about the relaunch — follow there for the announcement)

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her honesty, her openness, and her willingness to share a story that’s still unfolding in real time. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

A Note Before You Go

Shelly’s story keeps coming back to the same thing: she listened to her body. Not because she had a framework for it, or because someone told her to. She just kept paying attention to what felt off and made her move.

That’s what this work is about. Not a perfect plan. Not a dramatic revelation. Just getting clear enough to hear yourself — and then having the courage to act on it.

If alcohol has been part of how you cope with the version of life you’re trying to escape from, that’s worth looking at. The Sober Creative Method™ is a 90-day 1:1 journey built specifically for those who are ready to remove alcohol as the barrier to living more freely.

Not a detox. Not a recovery program. A method for becoming the version of yourself that’s been waiting on the other side of clarity.

Schedule a Discovery Call

As co-founder of Sacred Business Flow and a master bioenergetics practitioner, Carolina came to this work through her own body. Years of chronic migraines that started at age five. Hospital visits in her twenties. A corporate career that had her living, as she puts it, “from the neck up.” The healing she found wasn’t through more planning or better strategy. It came through learning to feel again.

What makes this conversation especially meaningful is that Carolina joined the Sober Creative Reset at the start of 2026, not because she identified a problem with alcohol, but as an intentional act of curiosity.

What she found along the way surprised her. A sharpened sense of choice. A wider space between trigger and reaction. And a relationship with her body that had quietly been shifting in ways she hadn’t expected.

Show Notes

[00:00] Introduction

• Carolina Wilke is a co-founder of Sacred Business Flow and a master bioenergetics practitioner originally from Brazil

• She brings decades of experience in healing practices, meditation, and embodiment work

• Her journey began with severe chronic migraines that worsened through her professional life, leading her to explore the connection between the body, mind, and energy

• She joined the Sober Creative Reset in early 2026 as an intentional act of exploration, not from a place of crisis

Key Insight: “Can you feel the space between the trigger and the reaction? Because that space is where your power lives.”

[2:16] The Migraines, the Body, and the Early Years

• Carolina’s migraines started at age five and escalated into multiple hospital visits in her early twenties

• Alcohol made the migraines worse. Hangovers amplified an already painful cycle

• She was never using alcohol to cope with negative emotions. She had an awareness early on that she only drank when she felt good, not to mask how she felt

• Looking back, she sees herself as someone who was “living from the neck up” — all calculation and planning with almost no real body awareness

Key Insight: “I can totally see myself living from my neck up. Like I had no body awareness like that. And I was always like calculating the future, planning like ahead of time, trying to figure it out, like all the steps. And if you think about it, like a lot of us do that and it’s freaking exhausting.”

[5:30] The Reset, the Intention, and the Space That Opened

• Carolina had done detoxes before but had never paired them with a clear intention

• The combination of removing alcohol and entering the Reset with focus changed something. The space between trigger and reaction became wider

• Even if she reacted the same way, she noticed she had a moment of choice. The pause itself felt like power

• She credits the intentionality as much as the physiology

Key Insight: “I felt that not having alcohol increased that space for me. It feels like I have a chance to do different. Like it feels like I have a choice.”

[8:01] The Placebo Effect and What Her Body Learned

• After the Reset, Carolina tried a regular beer and couldn’t drink it. The taste of alcohol had become too strong, like rubbing alcohol

• Before finishing the Reset, she had tried a non-alcoholic beer and noticed a full placebo effect: relaxation, warmth, even the sensation of a buzz

• Her body had been trained by years of drinking to expect a response. The physical ritual alone triggered it

• She no longer drinks regular beer. Her body simply won’t tolerate it

Key Insight: “I felt exactly the same way as I feel when I have alcohol. So the relaxation in my body...I almost feel that if I could keep drinking that I would get drunk without the alcohol.”

[16:22] Thinking Your Feelings vs. Feeling Them

• Most people think their feelings rather than actually feel them

• When an emotion arises, the instinct is to jump to analysis: the reasons, the stories, the justifications. That cuts off the feeling before it can move through

• Carolina’s practice: instead of naming the emotion, locate it in the body. Where is it sitting? What does it feel like? Is it tight, tingly, contracting, warm?

• Breathe into it. If you stay present and keep breathing, the sensation passes like a wave. Processing happens. The story loses its grip

Key Insight: “A lot of people, they think their feelings and they don’t feel their feelings. You feel like frustration and then you can’t really name where you’re feeling your body, then you go straight to your mind and all the reasons why frustration is there. That’s the reason why...and then you don’t process that fully and then you live from your neck up and that’s exhausting too.”

[27:50] Creative Practices and the Wisdom of Slow Work

• Carolina starts her work day by lighting a candle or incense and asking spirit to speak through her. It is a practice of becoming a vessel before creating

• She practices watercolor and pottery, both of which demand patience and detachment from outcome

• Pottery in particular teaches her about cycles and timing. A plate takes weeks to fire. Rushing it does nothing

• She sees these practices as training for life: show up, do your part, and trust the process you cannot control

Key Insight: “Both like pottery and watercolor are a great reminder of divine timing because nothing in those two arts are instant. Slow down, wait, enjoy the moment, and detach from the outcome.”

[33:27] Cycles of Creation and Why We Keep Starting Over

• Creation has four phases: create, sustain, destroy, and void. The dopamine lives in the first phase

• Most people never make it through the sustain phase. When the excitement fades and results are slow, they abandon the project and start a new one

• The sustain phase is where trust is built. Skipping it means repeating the same cycle at the same level

• The same pattern shows up in drinking. Numbing cuts off the body’s feedback, which means no lesson gets processed, only a story to loop on

Key Insight: “If we honor all of the phases, the next cycle is always bigger and it’s always greater. But then we want a shortcut and we go back to creation, but we repeat the same cycle.”

[38:05] Meeting Yourself Through Restriction

• Carolina is currently on a multi-substance detox: no alcohol, no sugar, no gluten

• She uses restriction as a tool to observe her own mind. Cravings become teachers

• When a craving hits, she traces it back to the feeling the substance provides: comfort, relaxation, warmth. Then she asks: can I produce that from the inside?

• When she can access that feeling internally, the craving dissolves

Key Insight: “Whatever the alcohol is giving you, it’s in here. We have the ability to produce that without the substance. So if you can catch and relate to food and alcohol as energies and just ask the question, ‘How can I produce that in me without the need of that?’ Your body will give you clues. It will give you maybe movement, maybe music, maybe something that’s actually helpful and nourishing.”

Key Quotes

“I don’t need to have a problem or a perceived problem to try to improve. We can become better or we can choose to do better, even if you don’t have a problem, per se.” — Carolina Wilke

“If you numb your body, you start drinking. So now you don’t feel it. So the discomfort is not there. There’s no lesson. There’s just the story.” — Carolina Wilke

“A mind state has a body state, so if you’re thinking in a certain frequency, you’re going to lead your body to feel in a certain way. But also if you’re moving your body, a body state can influence your mind state.” — Carolina Wilke

“I would suggest to people, if you drink and you think you don’t have a problem with alcohol, go just for the sake of exploration. Because at the end of the day, you’re exploring yourself. I don’t think it’s about exploring alcohol itself. It’s knowing who you are.” — Carolina Wilke

“With so many restrictions, you start meeting parts of yourself that they’re not available when you’re just indulging yourself with feel goods all the time.” — Carolina Wilke

Resources Mentioned

• Sacred Business Flow — Carolina’s business with co-founder Phil Powis, focused on helping entrepreneurs align their bodies and intuition with their work

• Radiant Flow — An embodiment practice Carolina has taught for years, recently opened outside their coaching community (currently waitlist only)

• Sacred Growth Club — The coaching community within Sacred Business Flow where Radiant Flow was originally housed

• Bioenergetics — The healing modality through which Carolina resolved her chronic migraines and which forms the foundation of her practice

Where to Find Carolina

Sacred Business Flow

Clarity, visibility, clients. A business that feels as good on the inside as it looks on the outside.

By Phil Powis ❤️⚡️

To join the Radiant Flow waitlist: sacredbusinessflow.com/radiant-flow

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , and many others who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her extraordinary insight and wisdom. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

A Bridge to Your Next Step

Carolina said something in this conversation that has stayed with me.

She came into the Reset not because she had a problem. She came because she was curious about who she was without alcohol as part of the picture. And what she found was a version of herself with more space, more choice, and more access to the sensations her body had been trying to communicate for years.

That is exactly what The Sober Creative Method™ was built for.

If you are someone who drinks socially, functionally, casually, and you have never once thought of yourself as having a problem — but you wonder what might be available on the other side of that habit — this is the work.

The Sober Creative Method™ is a 90-day 1:1 coaching journey through Release, Create, and Become. It is not recovery. It is discovery. It is the methodical, supported process of removing alcohol as a variable so you can finally see clearly what has been there all along.

Schedule a Discovery Call

What broke the cycle wasn't a dramatic crash. It was a book. A self-development book in Hebrew, passed along by a friend during COVID, that opened a door he hadn't known was there. From that moment in early 2021, Orel started saying no — to games, to distraction, to the comfortable pull of escape — and started saying yes to building something real.

A few years later, he quit a six-figure software job in August 2023, spent over 600 days failing, pivoting, and shipping, and built WriteStack into a six-figure SaaS — documenting every step of it on Substack under the name Indiepreneur.

This conversation got into the guts of what that actually took: the discipline, the anxiety, the identity shift, and the inner work that runs underneath all of it.

Show Notes

[05:00] The Gaming Addiction — What It Actually Felt Like

• Orel started playing MapleStory around age 8. By 13 or 14, League of Legends had become his primary obsession.

• “Every time I left home, every time I did something else, all I could think about is how much time did I spend outside the game that I could have spent playing the game.”

• During university summers, he played 12 to 16 hours a day, brought food to his room, barely left, and barely engaged with his then-girlfriend.

• The grip wasn’t just about time. His mind fed on games even when he wasn’t playing — he watched streams and YouTube videos, thought about in-game items while out in the world.

• At his peak in Overwatch, he ranked in the top 500 players globally. Then one day in February 2021, he said no to a game invite. “That was when I felt empowered.”

Key Insight: “I don’t think that I could feel anything else but wanting to play, wanting to play games.”

[18:19] The Shift — Books, Habits, and Finding a Partner in Change

• The turning point came during COVID when a friend introduced Orel to a self-development book. He describes it now as objectively not great, but says “it was the only thing that I knew and it really helped me.”

• He started waking up at 5 AM, reading, and building new habits. A good friend joined him on the same journey.

• “We kept motivating each other into reading books, improving the memory, improving our sleep, meditating.”

• They read around 100 reports of companies together to learn stock investing — “stocks and books replaced the video games.”

• Orel credits that friendship as one of the luckiest things in his life.

Key Insight: “It was a journey from trying to do a lot of things together to doing a few things together to doing one thing at a time.”

[20:42] Quitting the Job & Trying Everything at Once

• In August 2023, Orel left his software engineering position, giving himself two to three years of runway from savings and investments.

• He came out of the gate trying to do everything simultaneously — YouTube videos, LinkedIn posts, a Unity game, multiple apps. “Spoiler alert, nothing worked.”

• YouTube alone was costing him 30 to 40 hours a week. He hired an editor. The money didn’t come. He stopped.

• The lesson arrived slowly: focus on one thing, then focus on it long enough for it to matter.

Key Insight: “It took me some time to figure out that I need to focus on one thing. And then it took me some more time that I need to focus for quite some time on one thing.”

[24:16] Building WriteStack — The Pivot That Worked

• After 18 months of failed attempts, Orel gave himself one final six-month commitment. If it didn’t work, he’d go back to a job.

• The initial idea for WriteStack was an AI article generator. He built an MVP in two weeks. People didn’t want it.

• His first real user, Casper, told him the problem wasn’t articles — it was notes. Orel pivoted immediately.

• He committed to reading the same five books by Russell Brunson and Alex Hormozi over and over, sent hundreds of direct messages, and stayed in the work.

• On April 6th, Casper became WriteStack’s first paying customer. It grew from there.

Key Insight: “Every other big product for LinkedIn and Twitter and whatever it is focuses on short form... that’s when I pivoted and started seeing more and more traction.”

[29:57] Reaching Six Figures — And Why It Didn’t Feel Like Enough

• WriteStack hit six figures in annual revenue. Orel didn’t celebrate.

• “It just felt like I cannot go below that right now. And the stress of staying above that threshold and even growing more than that was so stressful.”

• When Substack released a native scheduler, he watched 30 to 40 unsubscribes hit in a few days. He described the feeling as everything going to hell — even though he knew, rationally, it wasn’t.

• Every cancellation email carries the same weight. Every slow day on Stripe triggers a spiral.

• He described constantly wanting to check his dashboard mid-conversation: “All I can think about is I should open a new tab quickly and check out Stripe.”

Key Insight: “I have that strong feeling in my heart, like somebody leaves — I mean, feeling so bad about it.”

[36:28] Managing the Mind — Body, Awareness, and Anxiety in Real Time

• Orel talked through his approach to catching anxious thoughts before they take over. The key: notice the body first.

• “If I just relax my shoulders and relax my face, I suddenly feel 60% better, 60% more calm.”

• He described a pattern where unexamined thoughts build on each other throughout the day — each one slightly dimming the mood until something finally tips it over.

• He meditated daily for three years at one point, up to 20 minutes each morning. He stopped, and feels the difference.

• He talked about naming feelings — recognizing anger or anxiety out loud to himself — as another tool for interrupting the spiral.

Key Insight: “I think that’s the number one problem is that we’re not aware even of what’s going on in our minds that we’re just spiraling.”

[50:56] What’s Next — WriteStack x Buffer

• Orel announced on the call (first time saying it publicly) that WriteStack is building a collaboration with Buffer.

• The integration will allow users to schedule content on WriteStack and then post to any platform Buffer supports — Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook, TikTok, Threads.

• He’s also designing a tag-to-platform routing system, so specific content types automatically flow to the right channels.

Key Insight: “So people can schedule on WriteStack and then post it on any platform that they want.”

Key Quotes

“All I would do is just play video games and secretly wish I had more time alone to play.” — Orel Zilberman

“Everything that I could do with the thousands or tens of thousands of hours that I spent playing video games, that I could do something else.” — Orel Zilberman

“I said no. And that was when I felt empowered.” — Orel Zilberman

“It took me some time to figure out that I need to focus on one thing. And then it took me some more time that I need to focus for quite some time on one thing.” — Orel Zilberman

“The thoughts just go through your mind, they put the stress on you, they make you feel something, they make your body change.” — Orel Zilberman

“If I just relax my shoulders and relax my face, I suddenly feel 60% better, 60% more calm.” — Orel Zilberman

Resources Mentioned

• WriteStack — Orel’s SaaS tool for Substack note writers: writestack.io

• Indiepreneur on Substack — Orel’s newsletter documenting his journey building a six-figure SaaS

• Buffer — Social scheduling platform; upcoming WriteStack integration

• Russell Brunson — Author; Orel read his books on repeat during the WriteStack build phase

• Alex Hormozi — Author of $100M Leads; referenced for the 100 daily outreach strategy

• At the Height of the Success — Hebrew self-development book that first interrupted the gaming addiction (author not named in conversation)

Where to Find Orel

The Indiepreneur

Join 6,701 readers for a weekly post about entrepreneurship, the life of the entrepreneur and lessons from my entrepreneurship journey.

By Orel

• WriteStack: writestack.io

• Orel documents his product-building journey in real time, including wins, pivots, and the honest accounting of what it costs

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , , and everyone who joined us live for this conversation. To for his honesty and openness. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

Do You Recognize This?

Orel’s story hit home for me in a specific way. The addiction he describes — the constant mental pull back to the screen, the counting of minutes, the way the brain starts organizing everything else around the escape — that’s a pattern I recognize. The substance or behavior changes. The underlying architecture doesn’t.

What also struck me was this: the thing that helped him most wasn’t willpower. It was direction. He didn’t quit gaming by white-knuckling it. He replaced it with something that had more pull — books, stocks, building, a friend who was on the same path.

If any part of this conversation is landing for you — if you’re sensing that alcohol has become the default way to decompress, cope, or reward yourself — the first step isn’t a big commitment. It’s just a few honest questions.

The Sober Creative Assessment takes about 3 minutes. It helps you see where you actually are and what might be getting in the way.

Take the Free Assessment Here

So when she found herself going out and planning on two drinks, knowing she’d have three, and ending up with four or five — she noticed the problem. The drinking wasn’t following her rules. She was following the drinking’s.

There was no dramatic bottom. No external pressure forcing her hand. She and her husband had decided not to have kids, which meant there was no built-in forcing function on the horizon. No one was going to make this change for her. As she put it plainly: “The change wasn’t going to happen to me.”

So in June 2019, somewhere over the Atlantic on a flight home from Aruba, she read Sober Curious cover to cover. By December of that year, she stopped entirely. And what opened up in that space surprised her — mornings she could actually use, a brain that wouldn’t stop generating ideas, a writing life she hadn’t known she was waiting for, and a book about how to stop letting your to-do list run your life.

Kerry is the voice behind The Proactive Life on Substack, where she writes about systems, grief, travel, creativity, and what it looks like to build a world rather than just a career. She came to Clear Conversations with no performance of recovery — just the clear-eyed account of someone who saw a gap between who she was and how she was living, and closed it.

[00:56] The Drinking Years: College, Law School, and the Tech World

• Kerry started drinking in college and continued through law school in New York City, where going out was simply “what everyone did”

• In her 30s, after pivoting away from law into tech, the pattern persisted — late nights with coworkers, mornings that were less than stellar

• She reflects that she was “in this boat together” with everyone around her, which made it easy to normalize

Key Insight: “When I look back on that, I think, oh, that feels like bad behavior, but we were kind of all in this boat together.” — Kerry Hoffman

[03:03] The Moment of Recognition: Control and Identity

• Around 2018-2019, Kerry began noticing the disconnect between who she was and how she behaved when drinking

• As a type-A project manager, she set rules she never followed: planning on two drinks and ending up with four or five

• She recognized that without an external forcing function — kids, health crisis, relationship pressure — the change would have to come from her

Key Insight: “I knew that if I wanted to make a change, I was going to have to proactively decide to make a change. The change wasn’t going to happen to me.” — Kerry Hoffman

[09:12] The Strategy: One Drink a Week

• Rather than going cold turkey, Kerry chose a single, clear rule: one drink per week

• She felt an all-or-nothing approach would set her up to declare failure at the first slip

• A trip to Japan four months in tested the rule — she broke it, felt terrible, and came home more committed than before

Key Insight: “I knew that a complex set of rules was going to be too much to manage and too easy to break.” — Kerry Hoffman

[15:30] What Sobriety Gave Her: Time, Writing, and the Morning

• Kerry began waking at 5 a.m. to write, journal, or read — time that had previously been lost to winding down and rough mornings

• She describes a consistent observation: even without a hangover, drinking disrupts sleep and slows the brain’s startup the next day

• She flew herself to Savannah, Georgia for a self-designed three-day writer’s retreat, then did it again in Raleigh

Key Insight: “Ever since I stopped drinking, my brain is always exploding with ideas and fun things to write about, things to do, things to try.” — Kerry Hoffman

[18:52] Creativity Beyond the Canvas: Curiosity as a Practice

• Kerry challenges the idea that creativity belongs only to people who paint, play music, or write

• She describes themed dinner parties, a daily photo practice from a writing class with Ann Napolitano, and actively looking for unexpected details on daily walks

• She connects creativity to curiosity, calling it the most appealing quality in another person

Key Insight: “I think creativity is very closely linked to curiosity. And that’s, I would say, the most appealing quality to me in another person — someone who is curious.” — Kerry Hoffman

[27:46] The Proactive Life: Systems, Grief, and the Book in Progress

• Kerry is writing a book about using systems-level thinking at the personal level — becoming the project manager of your own life

• Her argument: goals rarely make it onto the to-do list because people don’t operationalize them alongside the daily demands

• She also writes about grief, travel, and books on her Substack, and recently started a writer’s group of five people in New York City

Key Insight: “Too often, what we want to do, our goals, the things that we aspire to do, they actually don’t make it onto the to-do list, right? Because there are things that we think about, but we don’t operationalize it.” — Kerry Hoffman

Key Quotes

“I knew that if I wanted to make a change, I was going to have to proactively decide to make a change. The change wasn’t going to happen to me.” — Kerry Hoffman

“The drinking is in charge, not me.” — Kerry Hoffman

“I knew that a complex set of rules was going to be too much to manage and too easy to break.” — Kerry Hoffman

“Ever since I stopped drinking, my brain is always exploding with ideas and fun things to write about, things to do, things to try.” — Kerry Hoffman

“I think creativity is very closely linked to curiosity. And that’s, I would say, the most appealing quality to me in another person — someone who is curious.” — Kerry Hoffman

Resources Mentioned

• Sober Curious — the book Kerry read on the flight home from Aruba that sparked her decision to change her relationship with alcohol

• Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott — referenced at a book talk Kerry attended

• The Happiness Project by Gretchen Rubin — Rubin’s practice of choosing a visual theme for daily walks

• Ann Napolitano’s writing class — where Kerry learned the one-photo-a-day practice

• Athletic Brewing — mentioned as an example of how the NA market has expanded since Kerry stopped drinking

Where to Find Kerry

The Proactive Life

A newsletter about life as a series of projects—some planned, some unexpected, all worth documenting. I write essays about travel, relationships, creativity, healing, personal systems, and the messy middle between who we are and who we’re becoming.

By Kerry Hoffman

• LinkedIn: Kerry Ann Hoffman

• Instagram: @soverycary

• Website: soverycary.co

Thank You

A heartfelt thank you to , , , , and everyone who joined us live for this conversation, and to for her extraordinary honesty and insight. Your presence and engagement make these conversations possible.

With The Reset, You Get To Choose

Kerry didn’t wait for a reason. She looked at the gap between who she was and how she was living — and she chose to close it. No external pressure. No dramatic low. Just a clear-eyed decision that the drinking was in charge, and she wanted that back.

That’s exactly the kind of person the Reset is built for.

If you’re getting things done, showing up, functioning — but mornings take longer to come online, focus breaks more easily, and your output doesn’t match your effort — that’s worth paying attention to. Alcohol doesn’t have to feel like a problem to be quietly costing you.

The Sober Creative Reset starts this week. It’s 30 days. One container. Daily reflections, weekly check-ins, and a private space for accountability and support.

No labels. No lifetime decisions. No pressure to decide forever.

This is the Release phase of the work — removing what’s obscuring your footing so you can see what’s actually there.

And this cohort is pay your own price. You decide what it’s worth to you.

Kerry said it herself: the change won’t come to you. You have to decide to make it.

This is where you start.